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Have you not seen the kind of dewpoints the coastal Med and places like the Balaeric Islands get in summer. Their dewpoints are darn impressive for low rainfall and is due to the very warm Med sea in summer. Did you not see how lush that botanical garden in Rome was? It looks on par with Atlanta for greenness, but the plants are a whole level higher in subtropical quality. I think SE Asia beats the SE again in summer for humidity and lushness. There are so many broadleaf evergreen natives from SE Asia that people in the South grow around their homes. The SE has nothing native to match the camellias.
Check out this writeup from a FB garden group:
Now this is from a person that lives in the South and knows their trees if you ask me. Goes to the heart of what I saying about the SE US vs all the other subtropical climates.
East Asia is by far more broadleaf evergreen, and it is because of the winter stability and the summer heat. All I'm saying is the winter instability is the worst part of the southern subtropical climates, and actually hinders decent vegetation growth. I noticed no one bothered to comment on Hattiesburg winter of 2014 temps I posted. I truly doubt there is anywhere at that latitude and elevation that gets that cold in winter.
[FONT=Calibri]I understand the point the poster is trying to make, however. Even deep South forests here are more deciduous or semi-evergreen compared to east Asian forests of a similar latitude. There are many "true" or "pure" broadleaf evergreen forests at higher latitudes than here in North America. Most "broadleaf evergreen"forests above central FL are not technically true broadleaf evergreen forests.Yes, there are areas that are mainly broadleaf evergreen and they are typically within a few miles of the coast. One need only travel 5-20 miles depending on the area to find many deciduous species. Red maple becomes a dominant speciesin bottomland areas only 15-20 miles inland in the Charleston area. Tulip poplar can be seen growing with Sabal palmetto near the coast on the mainland. Sycamore, tulip poplar, laurel oak, and red maple are not uncommon along the upper gulf coast and many areas of south LA are dominated by such deciduous and semi evergreen species as black willow, water oak, sweetgum, laurel oak,tupelo, bald cypress, and honey locust. Even areas of forest into northern FL have a surprising concentration of red maple, American beech, sycamore, and sweetgum. I have even observed a noticeable presence of sycamore and even boxelder only 60 miles inland northeast of Tampa metro. East Asian forests of comparable southeastern latitudes are dominated by true evergreen species of the olive, cinnamon, and laurel families, along with various evergreen oaks. There are fewer representative species of these families found in the southeast US. True subtropical broadleaf evergreen forests are sometimes found to 37 degrees north or even higher in Asia. These type forests are found in southern South Korea with winter averages comparableto TN and VA.[/FONT]
Yep, people automatically think that all Med locations in Europe have low dew points because it is dry - not true. In land dew points are typically lower (though still not dry) whereas on the coast it can get very balmy..
Last summer at the end of July I was in Corfu during a heatwave and the heat was pretty unbearable at times.. I think posters from Miami would have even suffered during the heat that I experienced.. it felt like a jungle, it was physically painful to be out in the open air and thankfully I was on holiday and in the pool most of the time.. even then it was not nice though. The entire month of July last year was just relentless.. the locals seemed fed up of the heat
This location is at 39N and the SSTs were 29C/30C in late July
Just look at the temperatures, I have highlighted the days that I was there. Highs in the mid to upper 30s, lows in the mid 20s, dewpoints in the mid 20s.. not a cloud in sight the entire time I was there as well, so no relief from the heat through clouds like you get in the deep south
That particular weather station is also located inland, my hotel was right on the coast with the sea just 100m away from my room, so night time lows were probably even higher as well as dew points.. I now understand what flaminggalah goes through most summers in Malta!
Ice sheets pushed much further south in North America compared to Asia during the last glacial maximum, which likely explains why there's an abundance of "northern" deciduous tree species in the south.
I just think that if a plant's deciduous/evergreen habits were determined by extreme temperature departures in the winter, broadleaf evergreens wouldn't be present in the south. And Asian broadleaf evergreens being grown in the south would defoliate after cold snaps every winter, but they don't.
Where you getting those numbers from. If so I still think Raleigh Is some type of subtropical anyways. I just need to find the best classification system. Raleigh is just to warm year round to be not subtropical. We should stop arguing and come up with a classification system which is what I tried to do.
I used 1887-2015 data.
I think subtropical climates should be defined as Cfa climates with an average temp in the coldest month of at least 7 or 8C.
Yep, people automatically think that all Med locations in Europe have low dew points because it is dry - not true. In land dew points are typically lower (though still not dry) whereas on the coast it can get very balmy..
Last summer at the end of July I was in Corfu during a heatwave and the heat was pretty unbearable at times.. I think posters from Miami would have even suffered during the heat that I experienced.. it felt like a jungle, it was physically painful to be out in the open air and thankfully I was on holiday and in the pool most of the time.. even then it was not nice though. The entire month of July last year was just relentless.. the locals seemed fed up of the heat
This location is at 39N and the SSTs were 29C/30C in late July
Just look at the temperatures, I have highlighted the days that I was there. Highs in the mid to upper 30s, lows in the mid 20s, dewpoints in the mid 20s.. not a cloud in sight the entire time I was there as well, so no relief from the heat through clouds like you get in the deep south
That particular weather station is also located inland, my hotel was right on the coast with the sea just 100m away from my room, so night time lows were probably even higher as well as dew points.. I now understand what flaminggalah goes through most summers in Malta!
These same folks from the Southeast get frustrated and say "they don't live here" or something like that. Well, they don't live in Europe either, so how can they say it doesn't feel as tropical as the Southeast?
Ice sheets pushed much further south in North America compared to Asia during the last glacial maximum, which likely explains why there's an abundance of "northern" deciduous tree species in the south.
I just think that if a plant's deciduous/evergreen habits were determined by extreme temperature departures in the winter, broadleaf evergreens wouldn't be present in the south. And Asian broadleaf evergreens being grown in the south would defoliate after cold snaps every winter, but they don't.
Doesn't the much further south extent of ice sheets verify that North America was colder during the last ice age? That map you posted shows just how extreme again North America is compared to the rest of the world. Nothing changes with this geography we have.
Location: João Pessoa,Brazil(The easternmost point of Americas)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Infamous92
Ice sheets pushed much further south in North America compared to Asia during the last glacial maximum, which likely explains why there's an abundance of "northern" deciduous tree species in the south.
I just think that if a plant's deciduous/evergreen habits were determined by extreme temperature departures in the winter, broadleaf evergreens wouldn't be present in the south. And Asian broadleaf evergreens being grown in the south would defoliate after cold snaps every winter, but they don't.
I agree With you by part,but The Extent of Ice Sheet doesnt Mean that the place was Colder than Others,East Asia was Dry,because this the Asian Ice Sheet doesnt Reached Further South like in North America.
Im impressed how further North the South America Ice Sheet reached,this explain the Domination of Deciduous Trees in Mountains of Central Chile.
Nice writeup. I know of one palm enthusiast in raleigh growing palms that would only do well in zone 10 climates and they are doing fine, although im sure the more tender ones are protected. You are right, no subtropical climate has any thing about it that's tropical, SE europe has the mild winter sure but they are not tropical, there summers are generally warm to hot, and feature cool overtime lows so there summers are mostly not tropical, versus here In the south east which has a whole season of tropical weather versus Europe which has 0. I have said the southern forests in the summertime put other subtropical climates in the world to shame. The difference in greenery between summer in the south and summer in SE Europe is far greater than the difference of SE Europe in the winter and the southern us in the winter. Here is what people say about palms in the Carolinas, notice the poster trianglejohn says there are lots of palms in the Raleigh area, as I have said before. Also they discuss the citrus growing in nc. We are not completely devoid of palms and subtropical plants.
Interesting. Glad people in Charlotte are growing citrus and palms. I think they get the brunt of cold weather much more than Raleigh and Columbia do, though.
There's a lady in the Raleigh that grows a multitude of subtropical stuff. She's even growing a Chilean date palm which is impressive. I've never tried to grow them due to the extreme heat we get here but If she's able to do it then it's possible here as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tom77falcons
These same folks from the Southeast get frustrated and say "they don't live here" or something like that. Well, they don't live in Europe either, so how can they say it doesn't feel as tropical as the Southeast?
I've spent numerous summers in Greece while visiting family and despite not having visiting the northern part of Greece (the farthest north I've been was Mt. Olympus), I've spent a lot of time in the Athens area, Peloponnese and at 6 islands, including Crete (my favorite because of the Theophrasti palms )
The longest I spent there was 2 months in the summertime after I graduated, so I know a little bit about the summertime climate/weather there. It's pleasant and you can grow almost everything as long as you have proper irrigation, but it doesn't feel as tropical as the extreme southeast.
Yep, people automatically think that all Med locations in Europe have low dew points because it is dry - not true. In land dew points are typically lower (though still not dry) whereas on the coast it can get very balmy..
Last summer at the end of July I was in Corfu during a heatwave and the heat was pretty unbearable at times.. I think posters from Miami would have even suffered during the heat that I experienced.. it felt like a jungle, it was physically painful to be out in the open air and thankfully I was on holiday and in the pool most of the time.. even then it was not nice though. The entire month of July last year was just relentless.. the locals seemed fed up of the heat
This location is at 39N and the SSTs were 29C/30C in late July
Just look at the temperatures, I have highlighted the days that I was there. Highs in the mid to upper 30s, lows in the mid 20s, dewpoints in the mid 20s.. not a cloud in sight the entire time I was there as well, so no relief from the heat through clouds like you get in the deep south
That particular weather station is also located inland, my hotel was right on the coast with the sea just 100m away from my room, so night time lows were probably even higher as well as dew points.. I now understand what flaminggalah goes through most summers in Malta!
After reading your post I looked up the weather data for Athens. I was surprised to see the dew points are fairly high in the winter time. Interesting. Don't get me wrong, I've been hot in Greece while walking the streets, but I wouldn't dare do as much walking here in the summer time as I do in Greece. Islands in Greece do definitely get humid, but can tend to get very cool at nights as well.
After reading your post I looked up the weather data for Athens. I was surprised to see the dew points are fairly high in the winter time. Interesting. Don't get me wrong, I've been hot in Greece while walking the streets, but I wouldn't dare do as much walking here in the summer time as I do in Greece. Islands in Greece do definitely get humid, but can tend to get very cool at nights as well.
It's the same in palestine. Most cities are not far from the coast so they are fairly humid also. When I was there though despite temps in the upper 80s it still felt more comfortable than here in the summertime. Biggest thing you will notice when you come back in the summer time is the humidity. Remember getting home in August and the second I stepped out of the plane It was like I walked into a furnace and sauna at the same time. Massive different between what I felt there and here. Most humid place on earth I have been was Bahrain in late may, insane humidity there. Remember it being 90 something degrees at 10 at night, the humidity stung with those temps, instant sweat, during the day it's even worse.
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