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View Poll Results: Are palms required for a subtropical climate?
Yes 29 39.73%
No 44 60.27%
Voters: 73. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 11-03-2021, 06:21 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC, Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greysrigging View Post
In Australia, the most southerly occurring Endemic species is Livistona australis. There are some pockets of this species found at low elevation and near coastal locations in far eastern Victoria at about 37.5*S.
Found at higher altitudes north along the eastern coastal ranges into Queensland at altitudes 400m-1000m asl.
In Central Australia, there is an outlier pocket of Livistona mariae at Palm Valley latitude 24*S
In Western Australia another species of Livistona ( alfredii ) is found in the Pilbara at Millstream, latitude 21.4*S.
To the best of my knowledge, these are the southern extremities of native palm species occurring naturally in Australia.
Correlates pretty well with the dots on that map from the Scientific Reports article.
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Old 11-03-2021, 06:23 PM
 
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Coconuts or go home.
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Old 11-03-2021, 07:06 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LKJ1988 View Post
Coconuts or go home.
Haha, now I use the weedy cursed things ( yep, we think of 'em as weeds in Darwin, whereas the rest of the world thinks of 'em as the most desireable plant to have in the garden ) as my rule of thumb for the Australian subtropical zone.
Whats that you say, "but they're a very tropical species...." ?
Yes they are, but in the Aussie version of the subtropics they can and will grow, allbeit slowly outside of the Tropics. Wont grow in coastal Sydney ( and nope, Aussies dont really think of Sydney as subtropical, more humid warmtemperate oceanic ).
Coconuts can grow ( marginal ) about Port Macquarie, but better around Coffs Harbour and all points coastal northwards. Inland and at altitude, the frost line pushes surprisingly far north and frost is not a coconuts friend.
Port Macquarie and Coffs are in that 'sweet spot' of 30*S-31.5*S, about the latitudinal limit of the Coconut in Australia.
On the west coast in Western Australia, I've been told you can grow a coconut from about Jurian Bay ( 30.3*S ), but with more success from Geraldton ( 28.8*N ) I know of a couple of Palmtalk blokes who have grown the odd one or two in Perth, but winter protection still needed.
The sandy well draining soils of the Perth region are advantageous fo Coconut growth, but the real problem ( especially this year ) is a cold wet winter....coconuts do not like cold wet feet, and Perth is textbook Med climate....cool and wet in winter.
And no, Aussies don't think of Perth as being 'subtropical' either.
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Old 11-03-2021, 08:18 PM
 
Location: Top of the South, NZ
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Don't forget the Bangalow - I the most southerly Aussie feather palm. A great looking palm.

I've seen them up in the hills behind Nowra, or somewhere around there.
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Old 11-03-2021, 09:16 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe90 View Post
Don't forget the Bangalow - I the most southerly Aussie feather palm. A great looking palm.

I've seen them up in the hills behind Nowra, or somewhere around there.
Yep, and about as far south as Batemans Bay, 35.4*S or thereabouts and as far north as the high country inland of Mackay at 21*S
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Old 11-04-2021, 04:41 AM
 
30,434 posts, read 21,271,177 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greysrigging View Post
Haha, now I use the weedy cursed things ( yep, we think of 'em as weeds in Darwin, whereas the rest of the world thinks of 'em as the most desireable plant to have in the garden ) as my rule of thumb for the Australian subtropical zone.
Whats that you say, "but they're a very tropical species...." ?
Yes they are, but in the Aussie version of the subtropics they can and will grow, allbeit slowly outside of the Tropics. Wont grow in coastal Sydney ( and nope, Aussies dont really think of Sydney as subtropical, more humid warmtemperate oceanic ).
Coconuts can grow ( marginal ) about Port Macquarie, but better around Coffs Harbour and all points coastal northwards. Inland and at altitude, the frost line pushes surprisingly far north and frost is not a coconuts friend.
Port Macquarie and Coffs are in that 'sweet spot' of 30*S-31.5*S, about the latitudinal limit of the Coconut in Australia.
On the west coast in Western Australia, I've been told you can grow a coconut from about Jurian Bay ( 30.3*S ), but with more success from Geraldton ( 28.8*N ) I know of a couple of Palmtalk blokes who have grown the odd one or two in Perth, but winter protection still needed.
The sandy well draining soils of the Perth region are advantageous fo Coconut growth, but the real problem ( especially this year ) is a cold wet winter....coconuts do not like cold wet feet, and Perth is textbook Med climate....cool and wet in winter.
And no, Aussies don't think of Perth as being 'subtropical' either.
I am right on the Coconut line in FL. The Coconut line used to be south St Pete and has moved 30 more miles to the north since 1980 as we have warmed up so much since 1990.

There have always been 3 coconuts on the south side of a condo on Clearwater beach that even made thru all the super freezes back in the 1980's when Tampa got down to 19f.
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Old 11-10-2021, 12:08 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed's Mountain View Post
There has actually been some peer-reviewed research in this area. Bottom line: a coldest-month mean of 5.2 °C is where to draw the line. This would seem to support Firebird's use of the 6 °C isotherm for the subtropical boundary.

Source: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-23147-2
Windmill palms can grow in the Pacific Northwest and in coastal Northwestern Europe. The natural range of all palm species isn't a good criterion for delineating subtropical climates IMO.
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Old 11-10-2021, 09:50 AM
 
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I would say the native range of palms corresponds quite well with what I would consider a subtropical climate. I would emphasise that this is the native range, not cultivated range, as palms are grown well outside the subtropics eg at least one type of palm can be grown in most of Britain.

It's also notable that palms are poorly represented or absent in most Mediterranean climates, which I would not consider subtropical. There are a few exceptions such as central Chile but eg they are present in subtropical South Africa but absent from the Mediterranean Western Cape.
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Old 11-10-2021, 11:30 AM
 
Location: Etobicoke
1,548 posts, read 871,971 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bisfbath View Post
I would say the native range of palms corresponds quite well with what I would consider a subtropical climate. I would emphasise that this is the native range, not cultivated range, as palms are grown well outside the subtropics eg at least one type of palm can be grown in most of Britain.

It's also notable that palms are poorly represented or absent in most Mediterranean climates, which I would not consider subtropical. There are a few exceptions such as central Chile but eg they are present in subtropical South Africa but absent from the Mediterranean Western Cape.
They are numerous in cities across the Mediterranean coast in Europe, whether they're native or not is a different issue.
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Old 11-10-2021, 01:44 PM
 
1,503 posts, read 915,138 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FirebirdCamaro1220 View Post
California is mostly Mediterranean and there are palms everywhere
Yes, but there is only one palm native to California Washingtonia filifera, from some scattered oasis locations in the desert, away from the mediterranean climate zones nearer the coast. This is a a range map:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washin..._range_map.png

Obviously plenty of palms are cultivated in mediterranean climate areas, but very few are actually native.

If you look at this map you can see they're absent from many of the world's main mediterranean zones. None in California (except the inland desert), SW South Africa, SW Western Australia or South Australia. Central Chile, S Spain and S Turkey are represented, but as far as I'm aware only have one native species each.

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