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But we have "them thar hills", and we aren't along the I-95 corrridor so we must be Appalachian (basically codeword for southern and poor) and midwestern
Defensive much? I can't speak for anyone else, but I use Appalachian as a "codeword" for... Appalachian.
Defensive much? I can't speak for anyone else, but I use Appalachian as a "codeword" for... Appalachian.
TYou're damn right you can't speak for anybody else, because other people, including many along the immediate Atlantic coast, seem to think that Appalachian culture is necessarily an extension of Southern culture. And then Jackass James Carville used that bogus "Philadelphia/Pittsburgh/Alabama" paradigm 20 years ago (as in 20 ****ing years ago) to dumb down the analysis of the state's voting patterns into a language that know-nothings might understand -- and they still got it wrong anyway because they began to assume that voting patterns are necessarily a reflection of cultural patterns. As a result, these days you got dumbasses from New York, New Jersey and New England who believe that central Pennsylvania is a slice of Old Dixie in the interior Northeast when it's not. And having lived in both Pennsylvania and the deep South, I have enough basis from comparison to judge.
Location: Appalachian New York, Formerly Louisiana
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnutella
TYou're damn right you can't speak for anybody else, because other people, including many along the immediate Atlantic coast, seem to think that Appalachian culture is necessarily an extension of Southern culture. And then Jackass James Carville used that bogus "Philadelphia/Pittsburgh/Alabama" paradigm 20 years ago (as in 20 ****ing years ago) to dumb down the analysis of the state's voting patterns into a language that know-nothings might understand -- and they still got it wrong anyway because they began to assume that voting patterns are necessarily a reflection of cultural patterns. As a result, these days you got dumbasses from New York, New Jersey and New England who believe that central Pennsylvania is a slice of Old Dixie in the interior Northeast when it's not. And having lived in both Pennsylvania and the deep South, I have enough basis from comparison to judge.
I'll always say it, New York and Pennsylvania are absolute twins. People who think PA is southern at all are gravely misinformed.
I don't know the South that well, but I do know the West and the North enough to know that west Texas is NOT the West (except for El Paso, sadly) and that nowhere in West Virginia is the North, except maybe the little panhandle near Pittsburgh. Of course, Pittsburgh itself is not entirely northern, what with some of their dialect features like "far" for fire.
You're speaking of the "flat I" -- I've heard that exact word from a Pittsburgher before, and it actually sounds kind of like a Scottish accent. The the Pittsburgh area/Western PA dialect is very unique and is certainly a far cry from anything "Southern," hence it's own dialectical characterization.
/ɑj/ monophthongization[2][3][12][14] (Kurath 1961; Layton 1999; McElhinny 1999; Wisnosky 2003; Johnstone, Andrus and Danielson 2006).
Examples: tile is pronounced [tɑːl]; pile is pronounced [pɑːl]; tire is pronounced [tɑːɹ]; iron is pronounced [ɑːɹn].
Getting back to your initial implication, people in the Coastal South drop "Rs" like New Englanders and those in the New York City Metro; I certainly would not consider them Southern in speech.
There is such a thing as "dialectical similarities" in two totally different regions.
Location: Jefferson City 4 days a week, St. Louis 3 days a week
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West Virginia is southern for the following reasons...demographics, industry, speech patterns, politics, general history, and culture. Other than the Civil War, which is at best a borderline case, there is nothing northern AT all about West Virginia south of roughly U.S. Highway 50. While it is true that Appalachian isn't necessarily southern, West Virginia clearly is the northernmost extent of "Southern Appalachia". Pennsylvania and New York aren't even remotely close to the culture of Southern Appalachia.
To me, the South pretty much ends at the northern border of NC and TN. I see where Wikipedia calls WV a "Southeastern" state. But view a US map, and you see that WV is not really located in the southeastern portion of the nation. It borders PA, not TN or NC.
The best description of WV's location is that it's solidly in Appalachia.... which I realize isn't an "official region" of the US. But WV is a state that's kind of wedged between the Northeast, the Mid-Atlantic, and the Eastern Great Lakes. Anyone can claim it, I guess. Even the South.
...WV is a state that's kind of wedged between the Northeast, the Mid-Atlantic, and the Eastern Great Lakes. Anyone can claim it, I guess. Even the South.
It's kind of like Missouri being wedged between the Great Lakes, the Great Plains and the mid-South.
Other than the Civil War, which is at best a borderline case, there is nothing northern AT all about West Virginia south of roughly U.S. Highway 50.
Likewise, there is nothing Southern at all about West Virginia north of U.S. 50. Cultural and development patterns in West Virginia are very stratified.
Honestly, I think the reason the U.S. Government has classified West Virginia as part of the South is because every state requires a regional classification for the sake of simplicity, and the capital/largest city in the state (Charleston) has more in common with Virginia, Kentucky and Tennessee than it does with Pennsylvania or Ohio.
To me, the South pretty much ends at the northern border of NC and TN. I see where Wikipedia calls WV a "Southeastern" state. But view a US map, and you see that WV is not really located in the southeastern portion of the nation. It borders PA, not TN or NC.
The best description of WV's location is that it's solidly in Appalachia.... which I realize isn't an "official region" of the US. But WV is a state that's kind of wedged between the Northeast, the Mid-Atlantic, and the Eastern Great Lakes. Anyone can claim it, I guess. Even the South.
I think we all have our own definitions of these regions. To me, West Virginia is clearly more Southern than say Midwestern or Northeastern. You may see differently.
But I think part of the confusion, besides the fact that West Virginia is right on the border of 3 (!) major regions, is that the state is totally different from most others. I cannot think of any other state that is mostly rural and is made up primarily of mountains and hills. Even the "Mountain States" out west have almost as much plains as mountains.
And to repeat my maps again (public domain and my own remake), 1. The 2000 US Census of Ancestry, 2. Wikipedia's map based on the Univ. of PA American Dialect project map, southern speech patterns in green, and 3, Glenmary Research Center Leading Religious Bodies from 2000. Red Baptists, green Methodists, light blue Catholic.
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