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Because as an employer, you have a responsibility to your employees. There are laws that protect employees from discrimination. You can't just set-up shop, and then think that you should be able to ignore your obligation to follow labor laws.
I never said that I should be able to ignore labor laws. But at the same time, there has to be some room for an employer to make their own decisions about who they hire and fire without making the process incredibly bogged down. After all, it is their company.
Quote:
Originally Posted by artwomyn
No. My whole point, boils down to the fact that employees should be more empowered, on the job. And abolishing the at will employment rule, would help.
So...take away the rights of the employer in favor of the employees...got it.
While I do not disagree with the fact that employees can make or break a company, it is the employers who are putting out the money and taking the risk on building the company successfully and, as such, they should be able to have the freedom to make such decisions - if an employee is not working out, they should be able to fire them if they feel it is in the best interest of the company.
BTW - your use of the emoticon is a bit excessive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by artwomyn
If you don't think that's true, then take a look at the the post on this thread, about how I was fired unfairly, from a company years ago.
So you say - we have only heard your side of the story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by artwomyn
If an employer wants to hold an employee to a written contract, then that should be a mutual agreement, between the employer and employee. It shouldn't automatically be a condition of employment, unless both employer and employee agree to it.
If a company has an "at will" policy, usually the employee is required to sign an agreement with company policies, including this one. DOn't like it, don't sign it and go work somewhere else.
Quote:
Originally Posted by artwomyn
As I said in an earlier post, if an employee quits without notice, then the employer isn't damaged. The employer can always replace the departed employee, with a temp or permanent employee.
That is not always easy to replace an employee that quickly as if it were no big deal. Maybe if its a low-level, minimum wage type job it is. In the corporate world, things can be different. At my previous job, I had a few employees quit over time - each time it required everyone else to pick up the slack until we could find someone qualified to do the job, train them, and then give them time to get settled into their role - which usually took a few months (during which time other employees were picking up additional work, albeit still making the same salary).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavaturaccioli
No one has a right to a job. Period.
If you like your job and you want to keep it, work hard and make yourself essential to your employer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by artwomyn
I doubt that 95% of employers, don't discriminate. You'd have to show me hard evidence to back that up. Any fool knows that employers are subect to fire people. But what I'M saying, is that employers shouldn't be able to just let people go, for ridiculous reasons. And many do. And many do discriminate. The employment at will rule, makes it all too easy for employers to do that.
And I would say that there are a fair number of employees out there who slack off at work, spend time surfing the net instead of working, taking frequent long lunches, and just generally are not pulling their weight - it should not have to be difficult for an employer to get rid of thoise people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by artwomyn
You most certainly CAN do something about it. You can hire a replacement. That's what temp agencies are for. You can hire a temp, until you can find a replacement for the former employee.
In many corporate positions, again, it is not always that simple. Not every position can be as easily filled as a Wal-Mart greeter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by littleelvis
Most people who feel they were wrongfully terminated are bad workers to begin with. I have fired many people who felt they were wrongfully terminated.
Exactly - its sort of the grown up version of the excuse of "my teacher doesn't like me" when a kid gets a bad grade in school. I'd be willing to bet that many people who feel so strongly about this (making laws to do away with "employment at will") are likely the same cohort of folks who talk about how "bad" and "evil" big corporations are, and who probably think that their employer owes them free health coverage, 4-weeks paid vacation from day 1 and a guaranteed raise & promotion every year.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavaturaccioli
Let me tell you: Employees can be unfair too.
Yup.
Quote:
Originally Posted by artwomyn
With your mentality on this subject, blacks still wouldn't be able to vote, in the south!
When all else fails, start making specious arguments to bolster your point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavaturaccioli
I begin to sympathize with the guy that fired you.
x2. Maybe she was putting too many emoticons in her e-mails.
Quote:
Originally Posted by artwomyn
you shouldn't be allowed to terminate an employee, for a flimsy reason, that isn't based on their behavior, or perfromance. Get it??
Why not? Other than "its not right" or "its not fair"?
You obviously have never run a business and probaly never even been in a supervisory position.
This is potentially the worst idea I have ever heard.
What makes you think you have a right to a job forever with your company providing you do a good job?
If this were to happen can you imagine how picky employers would be about who they hired? Interviews would be like 10 interviews just to get a job b/c they need to make sure they get the right person.
Also, to anyone who has ever "been given a chance" and given a job that maybe was above what their previous experience dictaed they get, that will never happen again, why take a chance on someone when you can't ever get rid of them.
This would also be terrible for productivity. Most federal jobs are exactly what you describe and compared to the private sector their efficiencey and productivity is laughable.
I never said that I should be able to ignore labor laws. But at the same time, there has to be some room for an employer to make their own decisions about who they hire and fire without making the process incredibly bogged down. After all, it is their company.
So...take away the rights of the employer in favor of the employees...got it.
While I do not disagree with the fact that employees can make or break a company, it is the employers who are putting out the money and taking the risk on building the company successfully and, as such, they should be able to have the freedom to make such decisions - if an employee is not working out, they should be able to fire them if they feel it is in the best interest of the company.
BTW - your use of the emoticon is a bit excessive.
So you say - we have only heard your side of the story.
If a company has an "at will" policy, usually the employee is required to sign an agreement with company policies, including this one. DOn't like it, don't sign it and go work somewhere else.
That is not always easy to replace an employee that quickly as if it were no big deal. Maybe if its a low-level, minimum wage type job it is. In the corporate world, things can be different. At my previous job, I had a few employees quit over time - each time it required everyone else to pick up the slack until we could find someone qualified to do the job, train them, and then give them time to get settled into their role - which usually took a few months (during which time other employees were picking up additional work, albeit still making the same salary).
And I would say that there are a fair number of employees out there who slack off at work, spend time surfing the net instead of working, taking frequent long lunches, and just generally are not pulling their weight - it should not have to be difficult for an employer to get rid of thoise people.
In many corporate positions, again, it is not always that simple. Not every position can be as easily filled as a Wal-Mart greeter.
Exactly - its sort of the grown up version of the excuse of "my teacher doesn't like me" when a kid gets a bad grade in school. I'd be willing to bet that many people who feel so strongly about this (making laws to do away with "employment at will") are likely the same cohort of folks who talk about how "bad" and "evil" big corporations are, and who probably think that their employer owes them free health coverage, 4-weeks paid vacation from day 1 and a guaranteed raise & promotion every year.
Yup.
When all else fails, start making specious arguments to bolster your point.
x2. Maybe she was putting too many emoticons in her e-mails.
Why not? Other than "its not right" or "its not fair"?
Just to be clear, abolishing the employment at will rule, DOESN'T MEAN THAT AN EMPLOYER CAN'T EVER FIRE INCOMPETENT EMPLOYEES. It would make sure that employers aren't so quick, to just dump an employee, for a silly reason, and get away with it. If the employee breaks company rules, and/or cannot perform their job satisfactorily, then that employee should be fired.
Employees need more empowerment in the workplace. If they get fired, it should be only for just cause. NOT because the employer wants to do so, only on a whim. You just can't seem to grasp that simple concept!
You obviously have never run a business and probaly never even been in a supervisory position.
This is potentially the worst idea I have ever heard.
What makes you think you have a right to a job forever with your company providing you do a good job?
If this were to happen can you imagine how picky employers would be about who they hired? Interviews would be like 10 interviews just to get a job b/c they need to make sure they get the right person.
Also, to anyone who has ever "been given a chance" and given a job that maybe was above what their previous experience dictaed they get, that will never happen again, why take a chance on someone when you can't ever get rid of them.
This would also be terrible for productivity. Most federal jobs are exactly what you describe and compared to the private sector their efficiencey and productivity is laughable.
If an employer runs a business, they should know what they're getting into. NOBODY said that an employer must guarntee an employee a job, forever.
My whole point, is that the employment at will rule has, and is, used unfairly against employees in the workplace. If it gets abolished, employers will have to make sure that if they fire an employee, that it has to be for just cause, and not for a frivilous reason.
Employees deserve fair treatment, when they work hard for their employers. After all, the employee helps make the employer wealthy, by way of their hard work!
It was a small company, where the incident happened. But I was a good employee, and never caused any trouble. So the supervisor was in the wrong.
Another time, I was a good employee, and got let go without warning, because the manager was in a bad mood. And she decided to take it out on me. In that case, I complained to the company President, and that manager was forced to resign.
My whole point is, why should an employer let an employee go, for frivilous reasons?? A subjective dislike for an otherwise good employee, shouldn't be a good reason to let them go, and put their livelihood in jeopardy.
If an employer wants to hold an employee to a written contract, then that should be a mutual agreement, between the employer and employee. It shouldn't automatically be a condition of employment, unless both employer and employee agree to it.
As I said in an earlier post, if an employee quits without notice, then the employer isn't damaged. The employer can always replace the departed employee, with a temp or permanent employee. If an employer is in business, they should prepare for the possibility, that an employee can quit without notice.
But if an employee is fired without notice, they have to scramble to find another job, and their livelihood is in danger.
I disagree.
When an employee quits the employer without notice it DOES harm the employer.
I have worked with people in the past who have up and quit. They may have left with proprietary knowledge, they may have dropped projects, clients, customers high and dry-- they may have left with key passwords, they may have left with company property-- and in some cases where I have worked and this has happened all of the above has happened in a combination of one or more things.
Lost productivity does hurt an employer to the bottomline-- granted a very large employer may not feel it as keenly as a tiny employer.
I also disagree that an employer should not be entitled to fire someone based on a frivolous reason. If they don't get along with you they should not be forced to keep you around just because it is your livelihood-- it is their money that they are paying you and if you are not a fit-- you are not a fit. Sounds harsh but I don't disagree with it.
I don't see how a contract would not exist in a non at-will employment state. The international employees that work at my firm all have contracts that put them working for the employer for significant periods of time-- if they so choose to leave-- they can not without big penalties. The employer is also stuck as well. Personally- I don't care to work in that environment. I like being a free agent-- and if that carries a little risk of being let go for no reason then so be it.
But then again, I am not the type to linger at a place where I can sense and feel that I am not appreciated nor wanted-- I have left 2 places because of that. I KNEW that if I didn't go on my own it would be inevitable that they would get rid of me.
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