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If people of ALL generations hadn't fallen in love with cheapo crap made in China and let all our small business go under because we wanted Walmart and cheap junk rather than well-made more expensive things, all those jobs wouldn't have gone overseas.
The jobs that went overseas, were not driven there by Walmart. Have you looked at the country of origin labels on good in major stores and small mom and pop stores. You will find a lot of their goods are also made in China, or other country. Those other stores, acquire several times as many total goods from overseas than Walmart.
Quote:
We all gave Walmart the power to force companies like Rubbermaid to close their domestic factories and head to China. Funny, when I've been to Walmart, there are people of all ages there, not just boomers.
Walmart does not have the power to force Rubbermaid to close in this country and go to China. Walmart is only part of their business.
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If people of ALL generations didn't hold corporations on a pedestal and fight every attempt at regulation in favor of letting them do whatever they want, if we didn't vote in a business-friendly Supreme Court who decided that corporations were now citizens who could contribute as much as they wanted to political candidates....etc, etc, on an on. We are all responsible for the mess we're in, denial ain't just a river.
Question: Why should corporations not have the ability to back certain political candidates? As long as the biggest contributors to other candidates are Unions and their members, why should business people not have the same right? It only seems reasonable to me, that the business owners, and the workers, both have equal rights to support their candidates, which is really what the SC justices did.
By the way, we did not vote in the Supreme Court. Those are appointed by the president, with the approval of the legislature branch.
It would seem that you would prefer regulations over business. The next step would be state run business. They tried that in the USSR and it did not work out so well over time. One of the reasons that business leaves is to find a more favorable business climate to work under. We are over regulating, over taxing, over stepping our boundaries when it comes to the economic machine that keeps this Nation afloat.
Why is it that everyone wants to pick on Walmart? Target and other retailers are not doing so bad. If those that hate Walmart like Target then they are hypocritical. Both run retail establishments. As far as Walmart, I am a little down on them when I found out that they are all for the Affordable Care Act. What you may not know is why they would favor a Government program that cost so much to run. It turns out that they like the ACA because it will hurt their competitors.
Yes, it doesn't hurt them, they've always been fine with the taxpayers paying for their employee's health insurance, not to mention utility subsidies, food stamps, etc. Note how they don't give a crap if their employees finally have health insurance, or not.
Walmart is the symbol of this to me because they are the biggest retailer there is, and the first to employ these strong-arm tactics. They destroyed communities and small business whereever they went. They are the ones who pretty much blackmailed companies into moving their operations oevrseas - no one else but Walmart had or has that kind of power. And people were excited to see them come to their towns, it's like the Music Man, and I find them to be a symbol of middle class decline much more than other companies. They put under small businesses and towns lost good jobs, then Walmart hired the same folks back at a poverty wage, with states picking up most of the tab for them.
"Wal-Mart is one of the key forces that propelled global outsourcing -- off-shoring of U.S. jobs -- precisely because it controls so much of the purchasing power of the U.S. economy," says Gary Gereffi, a Duke University professor who studies global supply chains.
"Wal-Mart continuously squeezes its U.S. suppliers
to cut their prices, leaving companies little
choice but to close shop in states like Ohio and
source goods from countries with lower produc-
tion costs and lax enforcement of labor laws.
6
Today, 60 percent of Wal-Mart’s merchandise is
imported, compared with just 6 percent in 1995."
Consider this for a moment. Do you honestly think that much of manufacturing is not simply just automated? Have you toured any factories in Asia? How many.
Any manufacturer will tell their suppliers to cut costs. Remember the Ford Pinto and that $11 piece that caused it to explode?
But hey it was just 27 deaths...right Ford Pinto - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Ever 12 or so years there's another boogyman.
In the 1950's it was the interstate highway system and that it was "killing" small businesses. Truth be told it enabled people to drive further and thus people could move further making it easier for businesses to move away from urban areas. This contributed to white flight and the flight of factories from the north and midwest to the south.
There are countless mill towns and cities across the northeast. So it's not like this was totally new it goes back generations
In the 1970's it was the malls. Mall traffic can be argued to divide communities. A good example of this is Santa Cruz and it is detailed in the book the Leftmost City
In the 1990's it was Walmart and box stores
Today it is the internet.
In each of these cases there are ways to work with it but some do not.
Even if we were to roll things back a moment and bring some factories here would it really bring back jobs? Some but it wouldnt' be like the 1950's. Why not? Because everyone already has those things because prices have come down.
Look around. How much shopping do you really see outside of food, clothing and energy? Consumption is a bell curve that is it goes up for people in their 20's and 30's but then drops. How often do you see people in their 50's at a mall? I remember the early 1990's a mall near me packed to the brim with people. Why? Because frankly people were younger and they didn't have those things. Internet speeds kept increasing so it made sense to buy a 28.8 over a 14.4 and then 33.6 and a 56.6. Now it's all high speed, there's no upgrades left. How many tv's does someone go though in a decade? how many toasters, microwaves and washing machines? How many fridges does someone have to have...3..4? How many cars? How many houses? There's a limit in funds and time that people can spend on their "stuff".
Before walmart there was this company called Sears which was pretty much the same thing. As for things being more expensive and better made frankly that isn't always the case. A curtis mathis tv made in 1987 might look ok today but it is no match for a hdtv. Heck my grandmothers '77 impala lasted 24 years! Of course if their target market was someone that kept a car for 24 years then that is pretty cheap of them. Planned obsolescence is the name of the game. Company x makes a good product. Company Y can either cut their prices on a similar product or make a better one. Who wants to cut prices? So the competition by proxy drives prices further down regardless of where it comes from.
Remember how long it took to ship packages before fed ex and ups? Now you have tracking and insurance options and it is much faster and better for the consumer.
"They destroyed communities and small business whereever t"hey went.
Really? Then show me where specifically in Massachusetts where that was the case. Hanover, Halifax, Wareham, Quincy and the list goes on and on. We're awash in small businesses as there's room for both. I worked for one of the large chains and I can personally attest that frankly we didn't put anyone out of business. Within five miles there are plenty of garden shops, hardware stores, glass supply, plumbing supply, kitchen showrooms etc. One hardware store did go under but he was found guilty of keeping all of the income taxes withheld from checks and sales taxes. Troubles mount for closed hardware store chain - News - The Enterprise, Brockton, MA - Brockton, MA
Maybe you might not want to hear it but often times smaller places charge much more for products in remote areas to the point of gouging. The closer competition is the more likely prices will be lower, the further away the less it is. Now people browse and scan with smart phones to find cheaper prices somewhere else. The consumer is driving now, not the producer.
If people of ALL generations hadn't fallen in love with cheapo crap made in China and let all our small business go under because we wanted Walmart and cheap junk rather than well-made more expensive things, all those jobs wouldn't have gone overseas. We all gave Walmart the power to force companies like Rubbermaid to close their domestic factories and head to China. Funny, when I've been to Walmart, there are people of all ages there, not just boomers.
If people of ALL generations didn't hold corporations on a pedestal and fight every attempt at regulation in favor of letting them do whatever they want, if we didn't vote in a business-friendly Supreme Court who decided that corporations were now citizens who could contribute as much as they wanted to political candidates....etc, etc, on an on. We are all responsible for the mess we're in, denial ain't just a river.
Some prices have dropped because of outsourcing to China like computers and internet-connections but others have gone up like basic stuff like food, water and cloths. The reason why corporation has outsourced their factories is because of generate higher profits – there is no other reason. In a global economy (few tolls) were you are faced with cheap imports you have no other choice than to locate your factory abroad. Some corporations want to produce things in United States but they cannot because it would be a disadvantage doing so. So long the economy is global and the third world remain poor white and blue color job will continued to be outsourced and those service-jobs that are left will either given to cheap labor (mostly immigrants and even illegal immigrants) or be done by machines. It is a race to the bottom for many people.
"Some prices have dropped because of outsourcing to China like computers and internet-connections but others have gone up like basic stuff like food, water and cloths."
Clothes generally have stayed the same price. Now if you want to argue leathers and furs well that can be all over the place. In the early 1990's the price of fur dropped like a rock because fashions can change, it had nothing to do with china. Same with food. Adkins caused for awhile beef prices to go up and bread to drop significantly. Luckily it was a fad.
One issue I see is frankly the media will always say food prices are going up...at the supermarket. Do you have to buy at a supermarket? Why the hell would I buy blueberries from South America at a supermarket when I can pick them myself down the street for the lower price? Why would I buy eggs from halfway across the country if I can get them from a place down the street. Farmers markets have exploded in usage over the past decade. Yeah you don't have the fancy packaging and to a point this is something the US can retool on. Remember when food crosses state lines it falls under interstate commerce which then means FDA has to inspect. When you buy locally you save the environment, time and improved quality.
Price is not the only factor that comes into play. Otherwise we would all be living in Detroit for housing.
Remember that labor is the most controllable cost but in outsourcing you maximize the UNcontrollable costs. Foreign taxes, foreign regulation, currency rates, shipping costs, translation costs, time zone costs etc.
"In 1990, 43% of the population of developing countries lived in extreme poverty (then defined as subsisting on $1 a day); the absolute number was 1.9 billion people. By 2000 the proportion was down to a third. By 2010 it was 21% (or 1.2 billion; the poverty line was then $1.25, the average of the 15 poorest countries’ own poverty lines in 2005 prices, adjusted for differences in purchasing power). The global poverty rate had been cut in half in 20 years."
Location: East of Seattle since 1992, 615' Elevation, Zone 8b - originally from SF Bay Area
44,722 posts, read 81,641,337 times
Reputation: 58064
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sconesforme
Some prices have dropped because of outsourcing to China like computers and internet-connections but others have gone up like basic stuff like food, water and cloths. The reason why corporation has outsourced their factories is because of generate higher profits – there is no other reason. In a global economy (few tolls) were you are faced with cheap imports you have no other choice than to locate your factory abroad. Some corporations want to produce things in United States but they cannot because it would be a disadvantage doing so. So long the economy is global and the third world remain poor white and blue color job will continued to be outsourced and those service-jobs that are left will either given to cheap labor (mostly immigrants and even illegal immigrants) or be done by machines. It is a race to the bottom for many people.
Meanwhile, with high fuel and labor costs the shipping companies are competing to keep the Chinese goods coming their way, with automated container handling and fewer well paid longshoremen people needed. They were the few beneficiaries of the offshore manufacturing trend but that's not sustainable either.
The dollar lost over 90% of it's value ever since we left the gold standard in the 70s when most of today's retirees were in their 20s. A lot of retirees foolishly put their life savings into government bonds that yielded 1-5% when real inflation was 8-9%...so yeah, expect to see more great-grandparents being greeters at your neighborhood Walmart in the very near future.
Meanwhile, with high fuel and labor costs the shipping companies are competing to keep the Chinese goods coming their way, with automated container handling and fewer well paid longshoremen people needed. They were the few beneficiaries of the offshore manufacturing trend but that's not sustainable either.
Consider this for a moment. Do you honestly think that much of manufacturing is not simply just automated? Have you toured any factories in Asia? How many.
Any manufacturer will tell their suppliers to cut costs. Remember the Ford Pinto and that $11 piece that caused it to explode?
But hey it was just 27 deaths...right Ford Pinto - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Ever 12 or so years there's another boogyman.
In the 1950's it was the interstate highway system and that it was "killing" small businesses. Truth be told it enabled people to drive further and thus people could move further making it easier for businesses to move away from urban areas. This contributed to white flight and the flight of factories from the north and midwest to the south.
There are countless mill towns and cities across the northeast. So it's not like this was totally new it goes back generations
In the 1970's it was the malls. Mall traffic can be argued to divide communities. A good example of this is Santa Cruz and it is detailed in the book the Leftmost City
In the 1990's it was Walmart and box stores
Today it is the internet.
In each of these cases there are ways to work with it but some do not.
Even if we were to roll things back a moment and bring some factories here would it really bring back jobs? Some but it wouldnt' be like the 1950's. Why not? Because everyone already has those things because prices have come down.
Look around. How much shopping do you really see outside of food, clothing and energy? Consumption is a bell curve that is it goes up for people in their 20's and 30's but then drops. How often do you see people in their 50's at a mall? I remember the early 1990's a mall near me packed to the brim with people. Why? Because frankly people were younger and they didn't have those things. Internet speeds kept increasing so it made sense to buy a 28.8 over a 14.4 and then 33.6 and a 56.6. Now it's all high speed, there's no upgrades left. How many tv's does someone go though in a decade? how many toasters, microwaves and washing machines? How many fridges does someone have to have...3..4? How many cars? How many houses? There's a limit in funds and time that people can spend on their "stuff".
Before walmart there was this company called Sears which was pretty much the same thing. As for things being more expensive and better made frankly that isn't always the case. A curtis mathis tv made in 1987 might look ok today but it is no match for a hdtv. Heck my grandmothers '77 impala lasted 24 years! Of course if their target market was someone that kept a car for 24 years then that is pretty cheap of them. Planned obsolescence is the name of the game. Company x makes a good product. Company Y can either cut their prices on a similar product or make a better one. Who wants to cut prices? So the competition by proxy drives prices further down regardless of where it comes from.
Remember how long it took to ship packages before fed ex and ups? Now you have tracking and insurance options and it is much faster and better for the consumer.
"They destroyed communities and small business whereever t"hey went.
Really? Then show me where specifically in Massachusetts where that was the case. Hanover, Halifax, Wareham, Quincy and the list goes on and on. We're awash in small businesses as there's room for both. I worked for one of the large chains and I can personally attest that frankly we didn't put anyone out of business. Within five miles there are plenty of garden shops, hardware stores, glass supply, plumbing supply, kitchen showrooms etc. One hardware store did go under but he was found guilty of keeping all of the income taxes withheld from checks and sales taxes. Troubles mount for closed hardware store chain - News - The Enterprise, Brockton, MA - Brockton, MA
Maybe you might not want to hear it but often times smaller places charge much more for products in remote areas to the point of gouging. The closer competition is the more likely prices will be lower, the further away the less it is. Now people browse and scan with smart phones to find cheaper prices somewhere else. The consumer is driving now, not the producer.
Not sure what you mean by "nice try", I was simply adding to the discussion, but apparently to you it wasn't an open-minded discussion but rather an "I'm right and you're wrong" ego trip, so I will stop adding to the discussion. I'll acquiesce you that you know more about global economy than the economists at Duke and Cornell, and leave it at that. You're right, it's all the boomers fault, and none of the rest of us have any responsibility for it at all.
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