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To the OP: We Texans are friendly folks, but we're real particular about our private property.
You haven't had a gun pulled on you so far; don't continue to push your luck. If a gate is locked, you'd best not jump the fence. Do you think the landowner wants to keep everyone except you off of his/her property?
The power company should have their own locks on rural gates (after all, the linemen have to be able to access the lines & such); have your supervisor get you the keys/combinations for these locks from the client.
Also, I second the earlier comment about your life being jeopardized if you stumble upon a marijuana growing operation or a meth lab. And I'd also add "stash house" to that list.
I guess you missed this in the OP "I had a woman answer her door with a shotgun once". I would put that in the had a gun pulled on me category.
I used to sell cable television service door to door, but selling was only part of my job. I would also audit the properties on my list to make sure that they were only getting the services they were paying for. Most properties would have the cable equipment outside a fence, but a small percentage would have the box in the fence. No matter where it was, I was getting to the box to check the things I had to check.
I actually had more issues with people that knew I was going to be in the yard than the people that I had to enter the fence without their permission. For instance, twice people let me in the fence themselves and then went back inside and let their dog out on me. One was a Rottweiler, the other one I'm not sure what it was, but it was large and appeared to me very mean. Fortunately, I was a lot more nimble then and I was able to quickly climb a nearby tree times. Ob both occasions, I called the cops from the tree and on both occasions the cops told the resident that I was allowed to check the equipment and that really the only thing they could do was check my company ID and then call the company if they wanted to check that I was legit.
Another case happened when I caught somebody stealing cable. I didn't turn it off right away because it was pretty common for the cable to be left on at a house after somebody moved out and then when somebody else moved in, they had cable and, if they were renters, just assumed that cable was part of their rent package. So I finally did speak to this guy, who admitted that he wasn't paying for cable and he didn't want to pay for cable. So I went to the side of his house, not inside a fence this time, and I didn't have any terminators on me at the time so I cut off a piece of the cable that would prevent him from hooking it back up. This was a locked box by the way and I had a key to it since it was company property. The next day, I was still in that neighborhood and I saw that man outside and when he saw me, he ran inside real quick. I thought that was kind of odd so I decided I'd go over there and check the box again. He had cut off our lock and put his own lock on. I hadn't seen his work yet, but I knew exactly what he had done. I knew that since he put a new lock on, that he had also replaced the cable that I had cut. So I called the cops. The cop showed up and I explained the situation to him. He knocked on the door and when the guy answered, he demanded that he unlock the box or he'd be arrested. The guy protested a little, but he eventually came out and unlocked the box. Once it was open, I saw that he really was stealing cable so I cut his cable again and this time I also cut off a large chunk of cable that was actually going to the box. The cop told him that he was committing a federal offense for stealing cable and asked me if I wanted to file charges against him. I didn't, but told him that I would still be in the neighborhood off and on for a bit and that I'd continue to check that box, along with all the others I was supposed to check, and that if I found it hooked up again, I would press charges. The cop then told the man that he didn't have to be a cable subscriber if he didn't want to be one, but that he couldn't steal it either. He then told him that the box belonged to the cable company, not him, and that even if he wasn't a subscriber, we had the right to check our equipment.
My worst experiences were from apartment buildings though. Many of them wouldn't want people knocking on their resident's doors uninvited. I understand that. However, many of the property managers would think that a "No Soliciting" sign meant we couldn't go check our equipment there. I had the cops called on me several times at apartment complexes where all I was doing was checking the box. This one complex had 4 different buildings and at 1 of the buildings, there was only 1 subscriber, but everybody in the building had cable. That was a fun day for me. I terminated the service to every unit except the one that was supposed to have it and then went inside and left notices with my # on all the doors. Later that day, I got a call and a sale from everybody in that building. Anyway, the cops always told these property managers that they couldn't prevent me from doing my job and that I was legally no different than a meter reader. Another apartment complex, this one was gated and had a guard, refused to open the gate for me, claiming it was private property. I asked the guard if they have a cable box on the property (I knew there were 3 of them, 1 for each building), he claimed he didn't know. I showed him my list, which was printed just a day before so it was accurate, and he said he'd have to check with the manager. I told him that I didn't care what the manager said, I was checking the box and either the guard or the manager could watch me if they wanted to, but they weren't going to stop me. The manager said he'd watch me and I explained to him that I didn't mind if he watched, but we couldn't very easily give notice for checking out equipment because stealing cable was pretty easy to do and we couldn't give people time to turn off their own service just to avoid being caught. I also pointed out that it was a huge waste of time for the guard to try to prevent me from doing something that I had the legal right to do anyway, regardless of what type of property it was. I never had another issue entering that property to do my job. It was actually funny because a friend eventually moved into that complex and I ended up having more trouble getting in as a visitor than I did as a cable company employee.
One final fun story about my days selling and checking cable, this one resulted in me being arrested. I went into this town, found the street I was supposed to be working, and started knocking on doors. I get through about 10 properties and I'm about to cross to the other side of the street and a police car pulls up and asks me what I'm doing. Now, on this particular day, I'm just auditing because that's what I would always do on my first day in a new neighborhood. The officer tells me that there is an ordinance against soliciting inside city limits. I said, "That's great, but I'm not soliciting anything, I'm checking my company's equipment." He asked to see my ID so I should him and he said my company should be aware of the no soliciting ordinance. I once again pointed out that I wasn't soliciting. He told me that I needed to go to town hall and apply for a permit. I said, "a permit for what?" He said, "to solicit." I told him that I'd call my boss, but I wasn't going to town hall to apply for a permit for something that I wasn't doing. He told me that I wasn't going to call my boss, that I was going to jail instead. He then got out his handcuffs, put them in me, read me my rights, and took me to jail. I called my boss from jail and he came and bailed me out. This was on a Thursday and I was scheduled for court on Monday. On Monday, I show up for court with the company attorney. The judge dropped the charge against me and told the DA that he was tired of seeing these types of cases all the time so apparently there was a lot of this going on. By the way, the cop told me when he was talking to me that there were "No Solicitation" signs on the roads coming into town. I went into town on a state highway and the only signs were "Welcome to __________, population ________" and a "State Champions" sign for one of their high school sports. I thought maybe I had missed it so when my boss came to bail me out and then took me back to my car, I went to where I came in at and double-checked and there was no sign about soliciting.
So I can't say about power companies, but when it came to the cable company, since the box is our property and not yours, I have had my right to check the property defended by police and a judge. I do own property now, but the easement is on my neighbor's property. I can say though that if the easement belongs to the company, then they have the legal right to access it if they need to.
What power company is this? I have never heard of such, the norm is a notice goes out to customers with a date saying they need access to the property with a date on it.
Were you aware when you took this job, that this was the protocol?
When I first saw your thread it was going to some ridiculous thread thinking everyone in TX walks around shooting people, but you have a valid issue.
Down here, Duke Energy, TECO, and FP&L are allowed to do this.
Heck, if there is a fence or any type of construction sitting on an easement, we are even allowed to remove it. According to the courts, the homeowner is responsible for knowing where the easements are.
Now, the question is: Would we go jumping people's fences? No. Not unless we had to: unit is in dire need of repairs, homeowner cannot be reached, have been trying to reach homeowner for 5 months, no answer.
Keep in mind, this really only happens when the engineering department goes to inspect and analyze the unit/area. No repairs are done at this time, and generally, the inspection is very quick. In my case, I go there, snap a few pictures of every important item, and leave.
The line crews that actually go and perform the repairs are the ones who will likely end up having to move stuff on your personal property. The power company pretty much always issues a notice well ahead of the scheduled repair date.
There is generally no notice issued for engineering inspections.
Fourthly, San Antonio is one of the most liberal areas in Texas, with a predominately Hispanic and Democrat population. Thus you'll see fewer gun owners than you would where
you worked in West Texas.
I speak from recent personal experience when I say that Hispanic folks are well-represented at San Antonio shooting ranges & gun shows.
I guess you missed this in the OP "I had a woman answer her door with a shotgun once". I would put that in the had a gun pulled on me category.
Most people consider a gun to have been "pulled on them" when the gun is brought into in a position from which it could be fired at the person in question.
I suggest you go back and re-read exactly what the OP posted, and what he/she did NOT post.
The OP didn't indicate whether or not the woman had the shotgun shouldered, or held at the hip and pointed outward. The OP only indicated that the woman had a shotgun in her possession when she opened the door.
The whole problem the OP is facing, is he is in the country and does not understand country manners. ...
To get along, either call the night before, or stop by the farm house before jumping someones fence. That is country manners, and you should learn country manners before jumping someone's fence.
The problem is that many landowners are new to the countryside (and may not have "country manners" of their own), with sizable properties (5+ acres), just build a game fence around their entire property. This leaves little recourse for anyone needing access to the property. The house may be set back a considerable distance from the road, with no intercom at the gate, no contact number, etc. Should a landowner look at the easements listed on their deed when deciding how to fence their property? Sure. But in many cases the issue may not arise until months or years later when the power goes out, etc.
The utility provider should contact a landowner before making entry, I agree. However, sometimes it may be short-notice or just a lack of good policy by the utility that sends the employee or contractor out there. The OP in this case is following company policy, which may be just this side of the legal line. Is it good policy? Nope.
Originally Posted by veuvegirl View Post
It's full blown trespassing. You cannot jump a fence because the power company said so.
What a lot of people including you on this thread don't understand that property has different property rights involved. The owner of the property, does not have absolute property to the property. He only has the rights to the property, that have not already been granted to other people or companies. A good example, is utility rights owned by a utility company. I am going to give you deeded rights that others own.
Our 5 acres, has a 500 by 60 foot area, where different rights are held by others, and it is all recorded at the county court house. By law each of those holding rights can enter my property involved in these rights by law. Any attempt to prevent them from entering will result in my being arrested, for preventing them from exercising their rights to enter. That is the law, in all 50 states in this country, Washington D.C. and the U.S. territories.
1: Electric company has a utility easement down this strip, to run electricity back to our house, and 4 other homes on the other side of our entry lane. These rights were granted as part of breaking down 4 lots when subdividing it, and were demanded by the county to be able to subdivide into 4 lots, plus a electric easement across one of the lots across the street from our property to a 5th property. By law, I have to give the electric company people the right to access that property day or night, to be able to take care of providing electrical service. By law they own those rights. We provide them a 14 foot country style 14 foot gate to our property through our rail fence so they can enter at any time.
2: Natural gas company has the same property rights as the electric company.
3: A cable television company has the same rights.
4: The gravel lane we access our home by, runs on the west edge of this area. Our home, and the other 3 homes, have the right to use this lane, and for anyone going to and from the other 3 homes have the right to use this lane. I cannot tell them they cannot use it. They have the legal right to use it. In addition the man that owns a 300 +- acres was the one that subdivided off these 4 lots from his property maintained a permanent right to use this lane to access the field for him and any member of his family so they could use the lane to move farm equipment onto the 30 acres.
The lane dead ends at the 4th property. It is across from the farm land, with the home about 300 feet down their lane. Whe woman of the family, told them they could not bring their farm equipment using her lane as an access to the farm land. She called the sheriffs office, and wanted them arrested. The sheriff's office told her to keep them from using the lane, she would have to get a court order to stop it. She went to her attorney that informed her that when she bought the property that the deed showed that the farm owner had permanent right to use her private lane, and she could be arrested if she tried to stop them from using it.
Property rights have what is called a (bundle of rights). Some belong to the property owner, and others have other rights. Lets look at some.
1: Water rights. In some states someone else may own the rights on their property, and some one else may own water rights. These water rights may include well rights, or surface water rights, or irrigation ditch water rights or the rights to a creek or river that passes through your property. You may own a property with no water rights to any of those sources of water. I have sold a lot of real estate in the past where water rights were bought and sold, for say $2,000 per acre foot. If you want to develop land, you have to find say 3 acre feet of water rights that you can buy for every acre of land you want to subdivide into lots, before the city will allow you to subdivide the land, and you then make a gift of it to the city water district. Often the water rights on a farm, are worth twice the value of the land, and triple the price people will pay for the land with water rights over without water rights.
2: Mineral and oil rights. If someone else owns the mineral rights for mining, or oil rights for drilling for oil, you as the property owner have no right to those rights. If someone owning the oil rights wants to drill on your land for oil, you have to allow them to do it.
3: Access rights across your property to another property. The example of our property is a good example of that. The city, county, or state may have rights to put a road or highway through your property and if they want to put a road or street they have the right to do it, even if you don't want the road on your property. If they want to put a road as an example, if they do not have a right already, they will offer to buy the right of way through your property. If you say no, they will file action for eminent domain. The court will set the price you are to receive (value of the land used), and the court will order you to sell it to them even if you don't want to do so.
4: Utility rights which this post is all about. Yes if the utility has rights to cross your property with electrical lines, gas lines, water lines, etc. the company and their employees have the right to access your property.
You as the property owner, may even have to put in a gate so they have access without having to jump your fence, or they can just jump it, or cut a piece out of your fence where it crosses their right away to get access to your property. Example: The first lot on our lane, was built on a lot that has set vacant for 20 years. They ran the electrical service, and the gas line under our 14 ft. gate, as it was convenient to do. If it was not, we would have had to pull a couple sections and a post out of our rail fence for them to have access and a place to run the lines. If we did not, they would have just knocked down that portion of the fence, as by the utility rights we do not have the right to put a fence that blocks them from their utility right of way needs. If I had tried to stop them by waving a gun and telling them I would shoot them if they damaged my fence, they would have called the sheriff, and I would have ended up in jail with charges of threatening them with a deadly weapon to prevent them from being able to do their job.
I have been involved in property rights for over 40 years now, and have taken several university law classes involving property rights so I did not get my buyers and sellers into trouble over property rights.
I keep seeing on this tread proof that most people have no idea what is involved in property rights.
I apologize if this was covered earlier as I read the first few pages and the last couple and didn't see it.
It is not permissible for a property owner to pull a gun on somebody who is on their property (that is, outside their house) BEFORE SUNSET.
Sounds crazy, right? But that's the law: you can respond to the threat of force, and somebody skulking around the outside of your property a half hour after civil sunset counts as a threat of force. Before sunset, they have to be visibly engaged in the destruction of your property (your neighbor's property is dicey!).
The trouble is, someone with a concealed weapons permit knows this. Someone without one, who is still permitted to have a gun in their home, doesn't know and probably doesn't care.
If I were you, I'd get the brightest damn orange helmet I could find and also get hold of my company IT to get phone numbers for every address upon which I had to trespass. Here in Austin I know utilities can access your property, and the one time that's happened we were notified via mail and in person ahead of time. It's tough to do but the utilities don't want to create uncertain situations like this. They just need the pressure to do the work and connect 'address with gate' to 'call and email owner.'
The one time I did get a cop called on me he was pretty annoyed that he even had to come out. He let me go on about my business with very little questioning.
I'm really surprised the cop did not arrest you for trespassing. Just because you work for the power company does not give you permission to hop the fence.
Same thing with repo guys.
It is not like you are walking up the drive way to tell home owner why you are on their property.
I'm from Ohio and I've been down in Texas since June surveying power circuits. It's fun, I get to work outside all day with minimal supervision and the compensation is great. My supervisors seem to like me and and as far as I can tell I've been doing a great job. I was out in west Texas all summer and I hardly saw anyone but now that I'm on the outskirts of San Antonio people are everywhere. I'd estimate 75% of properties down here have locked gates. Big problem with this- The company we are working for has a policy that If we come across a locked gate we are to leave a doorknocker at the gate, climb the fence and proceed to the front door to let the owner know what we're up to. I had a woman answer her door with a shotgun once, I've had the police called on me and I've been yelled at/ lectured several times. Sometimes you'll be walking a line out in a field and you're never exactly sure whose property you're on. I dress professional and I'm decked out in neon yellow when I work but that hasn't stopped people from bothering me.
I'm 1.5 years out of college and this is the first job in my field (GIS). Ideally I'd like to hold down a professional job for at least a year but then again getting shot would really suck. I would like to believe I'm just paranoid but I really don't think that's the case. Indeed.com is calling
This project lasts till April. I'm thinking I should hold out and hope that I end up somewhere a little less gun happy on my next project. What are your thoughts? Do you think there's a real risk here?
Your problem lies with the people who tell you to trespass on others' properties, not with the law abiding gun owners who don't know who you are, and have the right to protect themselves.
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