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Haven't read all replies but some thoughts... and some people won't like to hear this, but: feminism.
Feminism has made it so that the male sole provider is simply not the norm anymore. Women have fought for the right to create a lifestyle that is now mostly unsustainable without both partners working. This is how women (I am one btw) can "have it all". Being a mom, wife, and having your own career and money. Spoiler alert they can't have it all. That's a big part of why things are how they are today.
Standard of living and what has changed from want to "need" is also a big part of it.
I am a sahm and we do it because it's important to us and we have a significantly lower standard of living than everyone we know. It's very hard at times but this is the reality of people who are not highly educated, privileged etc.
I don't either. Why do you have this perception that people live an absurd and unsustainable lifestyle?
I have a 2000 sq ft house, 2 paid-off sedans, 1 LED TV and 1 ancient CRT TV, 2 cell phones (but no home phone), internet (but no newspaper), 20 channels of well.. still mostly crap, it comes with the internet.. and I've never heard of any of those brands either. I think the fanciest place I shop is Macys. I use an evaporation cooler in the summer and a gas furnace to keep the house at 65 in the winter and the first movie I saw was Milo and Otis (though I have no idea what this has to do with anything). I do splurge on Starbucks once a week or so, but I rarely buy beer and I never took out any student loans.
Despite all that my wife and I earn well above median, but if we ever want to retire (which by the way, we have to fund that ourselves, your grandpa didn't), we can only afford to buy in either a working class suburb, that I'm sure your college educated grandpa would have never considered, or an exurb so far from the city that I would need a new car. If I wanted your grandpa's old 1200 square foot home in the city, I'd have to spend 1.5x as much as I do on my current home.
How do you not see this as an issue? Consumerism plays a part for some, I agree, but for most the cost of living has far outpaced wage gains, for about 2 decades now.
Agree completely.
Furthermore, what can be called "consumerism" is (possibly unfortunately) part of the American "way of life" at this point. I am in no way a "techie", and didn't want to pay for an expensive smartphone/data plan for years. Finally, about six months ago, I gave in, bought a phone and got a Straight Talk data plan (cheapest I could find), and now I can finally text/send pictures/keep in contact with colleagues that I was not able to do before.
I didn't really want to spend that money, and I am sure that my data plan costs FAR more than anyone's grandpa paid for his old rotary landline, but my point is - some of these things are almost essential for careers and everyday life in this day-and-age.
So, combine "forced consumerism" with ridiculously high COL vs. wages, and this is what we end up with - it's simply much harder to maintain a middle-class lifestyle than it was in the 60's or 70's.
Real Estate prices vs. income have sky-rocketed from the mid-80's to around 2008, and even after the Great Recession, prices in most areas still didn't go back down to where they used to be (this is inflation-adjusted and compared to the average American wage)
So, even for the EXACT SAME 1,200 sq, ft home, it is now much harder to afford that place.
.
I definitely agree with the housing point. I happened to grow up in same place as my first big job. My parents easily afforded a bigger and better house than I could have bought when I got the job, got married and had kids. I could hardly afford anything even with a good job in exact same city/suburb. My parents were able to do it, and they actually had a bigger house when I was a kid versus what we could live in with children one generation later. Such was the DC metro area, prices went to the moon. I don't know how anyone lives in DC area, we left because of it.
I don't either. Why do you have this perception that people live an absurd and unsustainable lifestyle?
I have a 2000 sq ft house, 2 paid-off sedans, 1 LED TV and 1 ancient CRT TV, 2 cell phones (but no home phone), internet (but no newspaper), 20 channels of well.. still mostly crap, it comes with the internet.. and I've never heard of any of those brands either. I think the fanciest place I shop is Macys. I use an evaporation cooler in the summer and a gas furnace to keep the house at 65 in the winter and the first movie I saw was Milo and Otis (though I have no idea what this has to do with anything). I do splurge on Starbucks once a week or so, but I rarely buy beer and I never took out any student loans.
Despite all that my wife and I earn well above median, but if we ever want to retire (which by the way, we have to fund that ourselves, your grandpa didn't), we can only afford to buy in either a working class suburb, that I'm sure your college educated grandpa would have never considered, or an exurb so far from the city that I would need a new car. If I wanted your grandpa's old 1200 square foot home in the city, I'd have to spend 1.5x as much as I do on my current home.
How do you not see this as an issue? Consumerism plays a part for some, I agree, but for most the cost of living has far outpaced wage gains, for about 2 decades now.
Interesting I live a very similar lifestyle and even have a car payment and we live off of ~3k/month ~50% of which is my mortgage and car payment.
Not only the cost of living, but the standard of living has gone WAY up. Once upon a time there was a single phone for a household, or even for an apartment building; now everyone has a separate line. Every family member now has to have a separate TV, a separate X-Box, DS, GameBoy and a separate DVR. The girls no longer share outfits; everyone has a separate wardrobe, no hand-me-downs. Dad has to have his "man cave" with all the same toys the kids have. And, obviously, you can't expect the kids to share bedrooms! And in some ways, having 2 incomes forces your costs up -- you're paying for much more childcare, an extra vehicle, another set of office wear, many more meals out, etc. etc. etc. And because people want to live in the 'burbs they have to pay to commute to work. You may even need to have separate households because one partner would otherwise have to drive 5 hours back and forth to work daily.
Think about a "middle class" family in the 60s. A 1.2k sq ft house, no AC, no cable, 1 television, ate almost all meals at home, had one car, vacations involved local trips like camping, going to the lake for a day, etc.
Today's middle class family: 2.5k sq ft house, house at a constant 70 degrees, cable, 3-4 TVs, eats most meals out, 2 new cars, 1-2 large vacations a year, 2+ cell phones, gym memberships, etc.
It's pretty easy to see how many families needed to almost double their income to maintain that middle class lifestyle.
Now this isn't the case for all, but it is for many.
I agree.
Quote:
Originally Posted by raggedjim
Exactly this.
Your hardworking grandpa didn't have a 2,400 square foot house, 2 suv's, 3 led TV's, 3 cell phones, internet access, 150 channels of crap on the TV's, on and on. I'll bet he never heard of Dolce & Gabbana, Fossil, Dooney & Bourke, Tag Heuer, or even Polo. He may have had a Sears credit card, but I'll be damned if he ever used it. He probably chopped wood in the winter and in the summer knew which doors to open and which ones you better keep closed. He cut his own hair with a pair of sheep shears he bought at trade day and still remembers the first movie he ever saw.
He doesn't care that you feel you have it rough...
While my father never cut his own hair, first his mother did it, then his wife, then me (his daughter). My dad died just before he turned 80 and had his hair cut by a professional only one time in his entire life, for his wedding.
He lived for a while in a one bedroom house in a family with nine children, plus the grandparents lived with them for several years. Just imagine 13 people living in a one bedroom house today?
Later they were able to expand the house and had a four bedroom house for up to 13 people. Today, how many children even need to share a bedroom?
See Jacob from Early Retirement Extreme or Mr. Money Mustache. It is most certainly doable today.
Thing is, I don't feel like we missed out on anything. We weren't extreme couponing or living on rice and beans.
About the only thing I was in the dark about was current TV shows/MTV/celebrity gossip. Now that I make my own money and have my own place, well, I'm still in the dark about those...
Before my company got me a smartphone, I had a prepaid phone that I spent about $10/month on. And I work in technology.
People often say they have to have something when they really mean they want to have it.
Furthermore, what can be called "consumerism" is (possibly unfortunately) part of the American "way of life" at this point. I am in no way a "techie", and didn't want to pay for an expensive smartphone/data plan for years. Finally, about six months ago, I gave in, bought a phone and got a Straight Talk data plan (cheapest I could find), and now I can finally text/send pictures/keep in contact with colleagues that I was not able to do before.
I didn't really want to spend that money, and I am sure that my data plan costs FAR more than anyone's grandpa paid for his old rotary landline, but my point is - some of these things are almost essential for careers and everyday life in this day-and-age.
So, combine "forced consumerism" with ridiculously high COL vs. wages, and this is what we end up with - it's simply much harder to maintain a middle-class lifestyle than it was in the 60's or 70's.
Well, I'm not the smartest guy, but I'm debt-free (paid off house, 8 cars (I have a car problem!), son going through college with no debt) at 53. Always saved money in 401k, and Roth IRA, and HSA. I know I have made TONS of money mistakes, but still keep trying.
There's only so much money and so much time, use it wisely. The thing that helped me most is when I realized it was counter productive to compare myself to my neighbors, they are BROKE!
you could get a job, any kind of job without any education and live a decent life and support a family, now it takes 3 jobs working 80 hours a week just to pay your rent. many people cant even afford basic needs(food, shelter) without government assistance (something like 50% of the US population, 150 million people get government assistance)
its almost impossible to start a family without everyone working full time or without government assistance.
how did this happen?
Big business, convinced the public, that unions are bad, and the high wages will drive the company's out of business.
Big business then broke the unions, farmed out ALL OF YOUR LIVING WAGE JOBS to China.
The business's now report record number of profits, at the expense of the employees american dream.
Think about a "middle class" family in the 60s. A 1.2k sq ft house, no AC, no cable, 1 television, ate almost all meals at home, had one car, vacations involved local trips like camping, going to the lake for a day, etc.
Today's middle class family: 2.5k sq ft house, house at a constant 70 degrees, cable, 3-4 TVs, eats most meals out, 2 new cars, 1-2 large vacations a year, 2+ cell phones, gym memberships, etc.
It's pretty easy to see how many families needed to almost double their income to maintain that middle class lifestyle.
Now this isn't the case for all, but it is for many.
I agree with you, If I lived how they did in the 60's, we would be just fine off one income. I choose, however , to work overtime, and now have land up north, a camper, ATV's, and 2 cars from 2010.
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I agree.
