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Any time you have a group of people working together you have some level of dysfunction because everyone has their own agenda. It's important to realize that the "worker bees" also have their own agenda. It's just human nature. We all want to work towards something better. The problem is with those who want something better for nothing in return. This does happen in management but it also happens with employees. The goal between all people involved SHOULD be to figure out how to align everyone's agenda for the common good to make the company a success. People who do this realize that they can be successful where they are despite dysfunction and can help work that out of the company in time.
I honestly think that companies either don't care enough about this, or they don't have the resources to allocate towards such an endeavor. Goal setting/attainment and career pathing is something I've seldom seen taken seriously, and I've worked for a variety of companies at this point in my career.
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Originally Posted by Nlambert
Rarely does someone just say I want the company to be successful because it means more opportunity for me to earn more. More success for a company means more business. More business means more jobs. More jobs means more advancement opportunity. More opportunity means more money. This in itself is a lot of the reason companies struggle and is one of the primary reasons that employees don't get promoted. They can't see past their own nose to spite their face because that scenario doesn't equal immediate gain for them. There is no stepping back to look at the bigger picture.
If it were this black and white, things would be far more simple. You leave out the fact that politics and timing plays such a large part in the corporate setting with regards to receiving opportunity. Opportunities don't just arise from more business and performing well. You have to be in good with the right people to get those better opportunities. Better opportunities don't just come to you because you are a good performer and you get good reviews. They often come to you when you have close relationships with those making the decisions to promote or delegate high profile projects. And then there's timing. Maybe your department can't afford to let you go, so you get passed over for other opportunities in the meantime. I've been sabotaged by my managers with regards to applying for internal positions, because they didn't want to lose me in their department.
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Originally Posted by Nlambert
The reality behind why employees leave is often far beyond just being unhappy with the company itself. A lot of people in today's world spend what they make. They don't save, and they don't manage their financial situation. As soon as they get a raise, that money is spent. Because of that they need to make more. When they don't get promoted quickly enough they leave for something else. Their excuse might be that they don't like the company, but they don't like the company because they want more money to support their lifestyle.
I don't entirely agree or disagree with this. While this may be true for some people, I think it highly depends on the type of person you're dealing with. I tend to associate with people who are college educated from top schools, ambitious, and career driven to an extent. Whenever it is these people seek out new employment opportunities, the driving force is typically desiring a new challenge and climbing up the career ladder, or they did not feel like the position was the right fit for their skills set. Rarely is it about making gobs of money, because we all typically live well below our means and have fairly simple lives.
This is placing blame on people for some ambivalent reasoning tied to needing more money to keep up with spending habits. It's their fault for leaving jobs, because they can't manage money properly. I think that's an intellectually dishonest argument when applied to the larger picture.
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Originally Posted by Nlambert
All that said.... some may think I side with companies on everything. I don't. I just tend to realize that I do have a choice in what opportunity I am presented with and that I can control to some extent what that outcome will be for me.
I do agree that you have a choice, and I think more people need to exercise these choices to keep both sides honest. Even so, you'll still have those who will berate them for jumping ship for something better, and label them as "job hoppers" or what have you. In the end, you're always stepping on someone's toes or not living to someone's ideal expectation. But I think you need to not worry about what others think, and do what's best for yourself and your family.
I don't think ToLove's point is to blame the person in the mirror. Now, there's nothing wrong with the feeling of wanting to lay blame. It helps us cope. But it doesn't really do anything to solve the issue. In order to change one's predicament - there needs to be some viable action.
I see the point here is that to make a change, one has to look within themselves and figure out what actions they can take to change things in the future. And you are exactly right - the grass always APPEARS greener. There's only so much we, as individuals, have control over. So it's even more important to take time to put some thought into our actions and establish a plan. Look at the long run.
Which is something I don't see a lot on here. Most people are often reactive rather than being proactive. Or look at the short term gain without considering the long term.
My point still stands that you don't really know what you're getting into until you've spent time working for said company or manager or client. There's just not enough intel or transparency to make a 100% sound decision before accepting an offer for a job. I can see blaming someone for not doing any research during a job search, and then realizing after it's too late that their new job or employer doesn't meet their expectations. But that's not what I'm talking about.
I can tell you from my own experience that I do an incredible amount of research before accepting a new job. I examine and compare benefits. I read reviews on the company. I research any news stories involving the company. I creep around on LinkedIn checking the profiles of those whom I interview with. It still has not prepared me for the plethora of mergers, re-orgs, lay offs, downsizing, outsourcing, and other significant org changes that have plagued my career, typically occurring shortly after I've accepted a new position.
But you'll still get chastised for leaving companies more often than employees did in the past. It's only because the corporate culture has changed! Longevity at one company is becoming less and less common these days. If you're going to hate (not you specifically, in general), don't hate the player, hate the game that has forced the player to adapt and make decisions like this.
Last edited by Left-handed; 08-10-2017 at 10:02 AM..
I honestly think that companies either don't care enough about this, or they don't have the resources to allocate towards such an endeavor. Goal setting/attainment and career pathing is something I've seldom seen taken seriously, and I've worked for a variety of companies at this point in my career.
No one cares enough about this. It isn't just companies. Employees have to care just the same for it to work.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Left-handed
If it were this black and white, things would be far more simple. You leave out the fact that politics and timing plays such a large part in the corporate setting with regards to receiving opportunity. Opportunities don't just arise from more business and performing well. You have to be in good with the right people to get those better opportunities. Better opportunities don't just come to you because you are a good performer and you get good reviews. They often come to you when you have close relationships with those making the decisions to promote or delegate high profile projects. And then there's timing. Maybe your department can't afford to let you go, so you get passed over for other opportunities in the meantime. I've been sabotaged by my managers with regards to applying for internal positions, because they didn't want to lose me in their department.
It's a combination of knowing the right people and being a top performer. Those who are a top performer but cannot work well with the team get passed up. Those who are low performers but brown nose either get passed up, or they get stuck in the position where they are eventually weeded out. In my industry every promotion I and my co-workers have gotten have been from a combination of performance and who we knew. Management knew us and began keeping up with us because of performance. Not because we liked to hang out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Left-handed
I don't entirely agree or disagree with this. While this may be true for some people, I think it highly depends on the type of person you're dealing with. I tend to associate with people who are college educated from top schools, ambitious, and career driven to an extent. Whenever it is these people seek out new employment opportunities, the driving force is typically desiring a new challenge and climbing up the career ladder, or they did not feel like the position was the right fit for their skills set. Rarely is it about making gobs of money, because we all typically live well below our means and have fairly simple lives.
This is placing blame on people for some ambivalent reasoning tied to needing more money to keep up with spending habits. It's their fault for leaving jobs, because they can't manage money properly. I think that's an intellectually dishonest argument when applied to the larger picture.
Your specific group may be this way, however many are not. I've seen way too many opportunities passed over by folks who complain about money simply because to get that money required more work than they were willing to take on. I had a few employees who worked for me with that mindset. People frown up when you mention spending habits often times because theirs may be similar. However that doesn't make it intellectually dishonest, nor does it make the statement invalid. If you have opportunities in your current job to advance and make more money and you like the job, why leave? I've seen countless co-workers get hired somewhere else to make more money only to immediately spend it on some new toy. Six months later they have moved somewhere else because they didn't make what they wanted to.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Left-handed
I do agree that you have a choice, and I think more people need to exercise these choices to keep both sides honest. Even so, you'll still have those who will berate them for jumping ship for something better, and label them as "job hoppers" or what have you. In the end, you're always stepping on someone's toes or not living to someone's ideal expectation. But I think you need to not worry about what others think, and do what's best for yourself and your family.
This is true. But part of doing what's best for you in the long run..... one has to consider the repercussions with burning bridges in companies. Depending on the area you could work yourself out of an industry if you hop around enough. Your name will get around.
If you have opportunities in your current job to advance and make more money and you like the job, why leave?
.....
This is true. But part of doing what's best for you in the long run..... one has to consider the repercussions with burning bridges in companies. Depending on the area you could work yourself out of an industry if you hop around enough. Your name will get around.
Most of what we are sharing about those we know or observe is anecdotal, so I won't really add anything to that. I live and work in a vastly different area than you, so my experiences are most likely going to be vastly different from yours. Let's just leave it at that.
However, I will address the quoted.
So, what's the right amount of time to spend at one company? You suggest that if your current job offers advancement and increased earning potential, then you should stay. So what are the time frames that you think people should be looking for? Because in most cases, I see people start getting ready to jump ship around the 2-4 year mark without any advancement opportunity.
Obviously, I think jumping ship every few months is a potential hazard to your career. I think most people would agree with that. But when I have these discussions, nobody really seems to be able to provide an appropriate time frame to move on from one place to another. Is it a year? Two years? Three years?
I mean, maybe in 10 years, there may be an opportunity. But do you really expect someone to sit tight for 10 years, doing the same job, without any realistic expectation of a promotion or significant raise? So what's realistic and acceptable?
I don't know what your work environment is like, but this past year I received a 1% COL increase despite overcoming some major obstacles within the org by myself. We dealt with a major re-org in the past year where my manager was fired, and have sustained an attrition rate over 30% which has caused significant instability. This was all in my very first year with the company. Before this, I've been met with acquisitions, mergers, outsourcing, and lay offs at just about every company I've worked for. This perpetuates a world of havoc and instability that always gets in the way of any sort of mentorship and guidance and advancement. What heavenly places do you people work at where this isn't happening and you're being routinely rewarded for your efforts? I want a job there!
I would love to see how the stats break down in terms of people's vocations. Judging by all of the anger, suspicion, and bashing of employers it would appear that most who come here are disgruntled worker bees.
Based on posts, there seems to be very few CEO's, business owners, or successful entrepreneurs. (I guess that would make sense... they're busy running their business and prioritizing their time.) But there are tons of people who complain a lot and seem to have an "anti-authority agenda".
I tried to find another thread or survey on this but struck out. Any ideas?
Why would a business owner get on the internet to complain about his workers?
When he can go up to them and tell them "Work or you are out"
Most of what we are sharing about those we know or observe is anecdotal, so I won't really add anything to that. I live and work in a vastly different area than you, so my experiences are most likely going to be vastly different from yours. Let's just leave it at that.
However, I will address the quoted.
So, what's the right amount of time to spend at one company? You suggest that if your current job offers advancement and increased earning potential, then you should stay. So what are the time frames that you think people should be looking for? Because in most cases, I see people start getting ready to jump ship around the 2-4 year mark without any advancement opportunity.
Obviously, I think jumping ship every few months is a potential hazard to your career. I think most people would agree with that. But when I have these discussions, nobody really seems to be able to provide an appropriate time frame to move on from one place to another. Is it a year? Two years? Three years?
I mean, maybe in 10 years, there may be an opportunity. But do you really expect someone to sit tight for 10 years, doing the same job, without any realistic expectation of a promotion or significant raise? So what's realistic and acceptable?
The number of years depends on the person's tolerance level. It takes a while to learn a new role, so one could reasonably expect to be in that role for a couple of years to become an expert in that role before being advanced into another position.
My recommendation is that employees need to keep an open line of communication with management and make their desires known during performance reviews. If you want another position, let them know that. Some will try to get you pointed on that path. If they do, you perform your role until that opportunity arises. If they make no effort to even discuss a path forward with you in the interview and make no effort to communicate their intention to help you get to that role with a timeline, look elsewhere. At the end of the day though, you have to take ownership of that situation and do what you can to make it known that you are a top performer looking to advance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Left-handed
I don't know what your work environment is like, but this past year I received a 1% COL increase despite overcoming some major obstacles within the org by myself. We dealt with a major re-org in the past year where my manager was fired, and have sustained an attrition rate over 30% which has caused significant instability. This was all in my very first year with the company. Before this, I've been met with acquisitions, mergers, outsourcing, and lay offs at just about every company I've worked for. This perpetuates a world of havoc and instability that always gets in the way of any sort of mentorship and guidance and advancement. What heavenly places do you people work at where this isn't happening and you're being routinely rewarded for your efforts? I want a job there!
No such heavenly place exists. My previous company went through 4 (count them) re-orgs in the almost 5 years that I worked there. I consistently received a 4 rating (out of 5) each performance review. Only 1 or 2 people out of each department received over a 3, which is considered "Performing their duties as required". Yet my best increase was 3%. Most of the time it was 1 or 2%.
When I hired on with that company I told the manager that my 3 year goal was to move back into management. I asked for three years to learn my new role before transitioning over. We agreed on a path and I made sure that we had discussions each mid-year and annual review cycle to remain on track. After my third year I told him that I was ready. He began having me shadow one of the other managers. Shortly thereafter a re-org occurred and he was bumped out of the management role over our dept and shifted to Engineering.
The new manager agreed to keep me on my target, but had some additional tasks for me to perform. I then became the production planner over my project, the unofficial operations manager over my project, and the planner/OM over another project when that person left, and the master scheduler for our plants in my city. I was working 10-14 hr days to keep up. It wasn't what I agreed to.
I stayed with it for the promise of that management role. The position finally came open after six more months and I applied and interviewed for it. He decided that he wanted my skill somewhere else and offered me a position as the manufacturing analyst for the company. He offered me a 10% increase but I had to perform this role along with my current roles. I told him that this wasn't in line with my current goals that we had agreed upon, but he didn't want me on that path. So.... after 4 years I decided to move on.
What this experience got me was a resume' full of buzzwords that other companies wanted. My wife's company heard that I was looking for a new job and offered me a job on the spot at the salary I asked for. When I hired on there almost 6 months ago, the same rules applied. I wanted back into management. We agreed on a plan, but instead of having me work there for 3-4 years, they actually turned the management portion over to me two weeks ago. The reason was because of my experience which I gained from the last role that I had. Because of this... I have no intention of going anywhere else. When I work this position for a few years I have an opportunity to promote to a higher level of management.
You move when you have tried everything else. When you and your company are confident in your abilities and you don't get recognition for them, then you move. That may take 6 months or 6 years. It depends on your skill level and performance. There is no number set in stone.
I'm going to address the elephant in the room with your post. I don't mean this to be offensive but hopefully eye opening.
Over 50% of your job opportunities listed above were abandoned by you. One of those could have been turned into more opportunity with the right mentality. Jobs aren't mean to be fun. They're meant to support you through life.
I grew up in construction so I have a hard time believing you couldn't find a job in those fields that paid you. They may not pay very well in the beginning, but they do pay. If you spent your time bouncing between all of those different trades/jobs you never settled down long enough to learn the trade and increase your skill.
Instead of spending your time browsing the internet for the secret to success (Hint... you wont find it here) go out and do something. You cannot get into engineering or programming online. You need to enroll in classes and go to school. At the same time, you could search for an internship that would give you some real world experience with your decided trade. Our group takes 3-5 interns each summer while school is out. Our company takes hundreds. Typically if the interns are good workers we hire them when they get out of college.
My advice is to settle in somewhere. Someone will hire you, though with your track record it will likely be difficult. You need to stick with it and beat the streets until you find something. The internet isn't going to help you. You have to put a real physical effort into getting there.
Are you saying that I should stay in low paying dead end 7/hr. jobs? By "abandon" do you mean, "mutually agree to move on to a higher paying job" ? I would like to know which one would be the great opportunity.
Feel free to share your construction experience, because I would love to talk about the difficulty of getting a construction job in 07-08. No, they did not pay. At the time we did not know why the bank would not release payroll. You can refuse to believe it all you want but there was a housing based economic collapse at that time.
"The secret to success" Would you quote where I said this, please. I said "free education resources" such as online computer programming courses. But apparently you can't get that online. I would love to enroll in classes, unfortunately, my family is not rich. I don't have 30,000 laying around. I have to pay for that out of pocket. Making minimum wage, that takes awhile. There are no internships for people not enrolled in education. Every single listing (I have seen) for internships have mandatory minimum education requirements.
Are you saying that I should stay in low paying dead end 7/hr. jobs? By "abandon" do you mean, "mutually agree to move on to a higher paying job" ? I would like to know which one would be the great opportunity.
Feel free to share your construction experience, because I would love to talk about the difficulty of getting a construction job in 07-08. No, they did not pay. At the time we did not know why the bank would not release payroll. You can refuse to believe it all you want but there was a housing based economic collapse at that time.
"The secret to success" Would you quote where I said this, please. I said "free education resources" such as online computer programming courses. But apparently you can't get that online. I would love to enroll in classes, unfortunately, my family is not rich. I don't have 30,000 laying around. I have to pay for that out of pocket. Making minimum wage, that takes awhile. There are no internships for people not enrolled in education. Every single listing (I have seen) for internships have mandatory minimum education requirements.
So go to college. The average tuition and fee amount for a TN community college is $3,700, annual poll grant amount, which you should be able to max out, is $5,500. It costs you $1,800 a year NOT to go to college. Plus you might qualify for workstudy, which is a campus job enabling you to earn even more.
What is preventing you from doing this? PM me if you like.
So go to college. The average tuition and fee amount for a TN community college is $3,700, annual poll grant amount, which you should be able to max out, is $5,500. It costs you $1,800 a year NOT to go to college. Plus you might qualify for workstudy, which is a campus job enabling you to earn even more.
What is preventing you from doing this? PM me if you like.
Exactly. TN has cheap schools and free training available.
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