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The original / ancient Berbers were of Eurasian origin (probably from the Upper Middle-East). These people were fair skinned (see classical Greeks / Roman depictions), unlike today's heavily mixed varieties and generally "white" in appearance. Only a small minority of today's Berber population is directly related to the ancient variety. An example of a famous pre-Islamci invasion
Berber is St. Augustine.
The few Berber genetic markers found in (mainland) Spain, Portugal and S. France comes from Mesolithic and Neolithic migrations.
BTW, Canarians who descend from the island chain's original inhabitants (Ganches) are not considered indigenous Spaniards / Iberians since they do not have a European genetic substratum.
Most Berbers now are only cultural Berbers and bear no resemblance physically to the original Berbers.
What no standing upright on two legs, no two arms, no an articulated thumb? Yes I am being a bit facetious but there is way too much concern about morphology when the real issue is culture.
What no standing upright on two legs, no two arms, no an articulated thumb? Yes I am being a bit facetious but there is way too much concern about morphology when the real issue is culture.
Yes, the cultural aspect is primary, but some oddballs have an twisted agenda that attempts to depict Berbers as Sub-Saharan from the earliest times and that is simply untrue.
They also terribly exaggerate Berber genetic markers in some European population groups, such as S. French, Spaniards, Portuguese and S. Italians. Much of whatever is there is VERY old. Plain stupid ...
The process by which pastoralism and agriculture spread from the Fertile Crescent over the past 10,000 years has been the subject of intense investigation by geneticists, linguists and archaeologists. However, no consensus has been reached as to whether this Neolithic transition is best characterized by a demic diffusion (with a significant genetic input from migrating farmers) or a cultural diffusion (without substantial migration of farmers). Milk consumption and thus lactose tolerance are assumed to have spread with pastoralism and we propose that by looking at the relevant mutations in and around the lactase gene in human populations, we can gain insight into the origin(s) and spread of dairying. We genotyped the putatively causal allele for lactose tolerance (-13910T) and constructed haplotypes from several polymorphisms in and around the lactase gene (LCT) in three North African Berber populations and compared our results with previously published data. We found that the frequency of the -13910T allele predicts the frequency of lactose tolerance in several Eurasian and North African Berber populations but not in most sub-Saharan African populations. Our analyses suggest that contemporary Berber populations possess the genetic signature of a past migration of pastoralists from the Middle East and that they share a dairying origin with Europeans and Asians, but not with sub-Saharan Africans.
PMID: 15806398 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
North Africans populations have five distinct ancestries.
*Maghrebi(diverged from Near Eastern and European(Mediterranean) >12,000YBP estimated)
*Near Eastern
*European
*western sub-Saharan African
*eastern sub-Saharan African
The indigenous genomic component of North Africa ancestry referred to as Maghrebi is the result of back-to-Africa migration from the middle east that is estimated to have occurred >12,000 years ago it it most frequently found in indigenous Berber populations. The Near Eastern component part of which was introduced during the neolithic(7,000-8,000YBP) and some is more recent(during the Arab expansion) 1,400 YBP. The sub-Saharan African component is recent it is estimated to have been introduced into southern Morocco 1,200 YBP(approx. 40 generations ago). The time period of the European component was not determined in this paper although the author mentions it could have been introduced via maritime migrations from the Mediterranean. Seven north African populations were included in the paper.
According to the recent DNA study Berbers are Caucasoid Arabs,[...]
Which recent DNA study ? Do you have a source ?
To begin with, Berbers ( aka Imazighen) can be considered caucasoïd
but they are certainly not arabs.
"The subdivision of the mtDNA haplogroup H in North Africa has confirmed that the genetic differentiation found among Western and Eastern populations is mainly due to geographical rather than cultural barriers. It also shows that the historical Arabian role on the region had more a cultural than a demic effect.[...]"
- [URL="http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2156/10/8"]BMC Genetics | Full text | Mitochondrial DNA haplogroup H structure in North Africa.[/URL]
"The indigenous North African ancestry may have been more common in Berber populations and appears most closely related to populations outside of Africa, but divergence between Maghrebi peoples and Near Eastern/Europeans likely precedes the Holocene (>12,000 ya). We also find significant signatures of sub-Saharan African ancestry that vary substantially among populations. These sub-Saharan ancestries appear to be a recent introduction into North African populations, dating to about 1,200 years ago in southern Morocco and about 750 years ago into Egypt, possibly reflecting the patterns of the trans-Saharan slave trade that occurred during this period.[...]"
- [URL="http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1002397"]PLOS Genetics: Genomic Ancestry of North Africans Supports Back-to-Africa Migrations[/URL]
Then, on the other hand, arabs are black or at least mulattos.
"Although there is evidence of Neolithic and more recent expansions in the Arabian Peninsula, mainly detected by (preHV)1 and J1b lineages, the lack of primitive autochthonous M and N sequences, suggests that this area has been more a receptor of human migrations, including historic ones, from Africa, India, Indonesia and even Australia,[...]".
- [URL="http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/8/45"]BMC Evolutionary Biology | Full text | Mitochondrial DNA structure in the Arabian Peninsula[/URL]
There is a lot of people who happen to be mulattos, both in North-Africa and Middle-East.
And those mulattos prefer to be considered as arabs, because it is more prestigious in an islamic country.
Thousands of years ago, the first settlers were ibero mauricians, they were farmers whom had settled in the Mediterranean (sardinia, italy, North Africa) and it's why north africans have dna that's native to europe. The second group that had arrived were Berber pastoralists, they had mixed with the local north african ibero mauricians. A third group were East African pastoralists, these people were roughly half black - Middle Eastern genetically and they had mixed with the North Africans but their genetic affect was smaller. Most of the sub saharan african dna in north africans is very ancient and is mostly from East Africa. The only thing that makes North African not European is that extra Middle Eastern blood (Berber pastoralists) and Sub saharan admixture.
Thousands of years ago, the first settlers were ibero mauricians, they were farmers whom had settled in the Mediterranean (sardinia, italy, North Africa) and it's why north africans have dna that's native to europe. The second group that had arrived were Berber pastoralists, they had mixed with the local north african ibero mauricians. A third group were East African pastoralists, these people were roughly half black - Middle Eastern genetically and they had mixed with the North Africans but their genetic affect was smaller. Most of the sub saharan african dna in north africans is very ancient and is mostly from East Africa. The only thing that makes North African not European is that extra Middle Eastern blood (Berber pastoralists) and Sub saharan admixture.
The current science doesn't support your statement for Morocco read the study in post #37sub-Saharan African DNA was introduced about 40 generations ago 1,400 YBP into southern Morocco. Do you have a DNA study that supports your statement? not an article or a abstract. The estimated time of 40 generations correlates perfectly with the Muslim conquest of the Maghreb the Arabs were heavy into slave trade.
Last edited by AFP; 08-05-2015 at 07:14 AM..
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