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Persaud and I do not have the same perspective, though I understand and respect her motivations.
The FACT is that the vast majority of Indo Caribbean people will be highly hostile to an Afro Caribbean person like me insisting that they should identify as being part of some undifferentiated group. Indo Caribbean people who advocate this (almost always young intellectuals who exist outside of these communities) are considered to be some sort of Uncle Tom by large numbers of Indo Caribbean people.
Its not what I feel. It is what I know about how most Indo Caribbean people feel and, as some one who moves around the Caribbean community in NYC, there is more interaction at a social level between Afro (Anglo and Haitian) Caribbean blacks than there is with either Hispanic Caribbean people, with Indo Caribbean people being the most distant. You ought to hear the discussions which emerge within Guyanese groups about this ethnic divide. I suspect that most have given up trying to bridge it.
Even in liberal Trinidad there is a strong and vocal resistance from mnay more traditional Indians about steel pan and Carnival. And opinions expressed towards the Indian females who participate in it. Guyana and Suriname are way more ethnically divided so those views are more entrenched.
What I do know is that a category called "Caribbean" with further breakdown into "African", "Indian", and "other" will not happen. Why waste time with what will not happen when another solution, which at least partially addresses the problem of under identification of Caribbean people in official data, exists?
The group is differentiated, but just not how you like. So not really sure what you are going on about here. It seems like you are not understanding what it being advocated, but rather are going on your own experiences and feelings.
Again, are you Trinidadian, Guyanese or another Caribbean group?
The issue is that the US census cannot develop an identity based on how SOME people identify. Of what use will this data be? If some Caribbean people want to self identify as a generic Caribbean peoples (and then proceed to engage in an argument about who is a Caribbean person.....as we have seen throughout this thread) the US Census isnt stopping them.
But the US Census cannot allow 200 different classifications, based upon how some people may wish to identify. IF Caribbean people get their category then the Arabs will want it (they have already asked) and also countless other groups, like the Garifuna. The census form will be pages and pages, once the various cross sectoral analyses based on each group, are done,
Remember that this data is used mainly to allow comparable analyses to be done of each particular grouping. So how will one assess the socio economic status based on household income, home ownership, education attained, etc if some people identify and others of that grouping do not?
And I know loads of Guyanese Indians who will be enraged if you called them "Caribbean". They see it like calling them "black". Indeed among Guyanese those of Indian origin fit into the USA, based on family structure, home ownership, occupation, laborforce participation, and residence, very differently from those of African descent, who more closely mirror blacks from the Anglophone Caribbean.
Indeed many Indo Caribbean people want an Indo-Caribbean category, given that they do not see themselves as fitting into either the "Asian Indian" category, nor a generic "Caribbean" category, which is likely to be populated mainly with those of African origin. And indeed many lament the notion that to be "Caribbean" is to be lost in an AfroCaribbean Sea, given that the vast majority of non Hispanic Caribbean people are of African descent (mainly or partially).
So it makes loads of sense for the category "Non Hispanic Black/African American" to be treated like Hispanic and Asian, with some subgroupings (Caribbean/Sub Saharan African). That is the most that you will get so its best to aim for that.
Caribbean Asians can check "Asian" and fill in the "other" category with their national origins. These populations are too small to get more than that.
The USA government marks Hispanics and Latinos as racially WHITE by default. And Hispanics and Latinos that don't mark any racial category or don't fill out race category correctly, are AUTOMATICALLY listed as WHITES for numerical purposes.
Any person that fills out any of the census incorrectly or not at all will get marked as WHITE. "Others" get marked as white as well.
The issue is that the US census cannot develop an identity based on how SOME people identify. Of what use will this data be? If some Caribbean people want to self identify as a generic Caribbean peoples (and then proceed to engage in an argument about who is a Caribbean person.....as we have seen throughout this thread) the US Census isnt stopping them.
But the US Census cannot allow 200 different classifications, based upon how some people may wish to identify. IF Caribbean people get their category then the Arabs will want it (they have already asked) and also countless other groups, like the Garifuna. The census form will be pages and pages, once the various cross sectoral analyses based on each group, are done,
Remember that this data is used mainly to allow comparable analyses to be done of each particular grouping. So how will one assess the socio economic status based on household income, home ownership, education attained, etc if some people identify and others of that grouping do not?
And I know loads of Guyanese Indians who will be enraged if you called them "Caribbean". They see it like calling them "black". Indeed among Guyanese those of Indian origin fit into the USA, based on family structure, home ownership, occupation, laborforce participation, and residence, very differently from those of African descent, who more closely mirror blacks from the Anglophone Caribbean.
Indeed many Indo Caribbean people want an Indo-Caribbean category, given that they do not see themselves as fitting into either the "Asian Indian" category, nor a generic "Caribbean" category, which is likely to be populated mainly with those of African origin. And indeed many lament the notion that to be "Caribbean" is to be lost in an AfroCaribbean Sea, given that the vast majority of non Hispanic Caribbean people are of African descent (mainly or partially).
So it makes loads of sense for the category "Non Hispanic Black/African American" to be treated like Hispanic and Asian, with some subgroupings (Caribbean/Sub Saharan African). That is the most that you will get so its best to aim for that.
Caribbean Asians can check "Asian" and fill in the "other" category with their national origins. These populations are too small to get more than that.
Most people in the Spanish speaking Caribbean islands, nations have African ancestry as well, so idk what you are talking about.
In addition West Indian and Black do NOT equal one and the same thing nor are they the same. West Indian does not mean African either.
I know that you believe that Caribbean people are super special and unique but they are not numerous enough (or powerful enough) in the US to bother with separating them out from the "black" category. And considering that most Caribbean people tend to assimilate into the African American population within a generation the overall effort is rather pointless. Outside of the NY and Miami areas, Caribbean people do not have the number to make an impact.
Caribbean people have been part of USA history since the beginning if you want to get technical. In addition the Caribbean does NOT mean soley the English speaking nations and regions. The ABC islands and the Spanish speaking islands as well as French speaking islands are important and integral parts of the Caribbean.
I actually happen to know her. She is IndoGuyanese but has a very strong pan (Anglo) Caribbean identity. She not the norm in this (at least not at the immigrant generation level) and I have heard lots of very vulgar comments lobbied against her by many IndoGuyanese. I actually do admire her for her actions.
The reality is that the Indo Caribbean community has very very very very few ties with the Afro(Anglo) Caribbean community and any one who tries to peddle that notion is not being true to themselves, what ever their PERSONAL situation might be. I do not know whether she does, or in fact whether she is trying to construct such ties with her various projects.
Indeed much as many AfroCaribbean people battle to be seen in terms of themselves, and not made invisible within African American spaces, so too do many Indo Caribbean people battle to not be forced into an AfroCaribbean dominated space.
I will submit that there is more to differentiate Indo and Afro Caribbean people from each other than what divides Afro Caribeban people from African Americans. And indeed there are many Caribbean Indians who think that "douglarization" (an insult thrown at her by several Indo Guyanese) amounts to ethnocultural genocide.
Persaud raises a valid issue that it is hard to get specific marketing (socioeconomic or numeric) data on the Caribbean community. Which is why I endorse a modification of the "AfricanAmerican/Black" box to allow it to be further divided into American, Caribbean,subSaharan African in the same way as Hispanics and Asians are able to further define their identity. Even though this might lead to confusion among many US born blacks of immigrant origin, it will be of interest to separate out those who self identify based on their parents/grandparents nationality/ethnicity, from those who self identify with AAs.
The reality is that while many non Hispanic Caribbean origin/descended people are not of African descent the vast majority are. The US Census cannot pick up every single form of identity, which is why "Other" exists. I already mentioned howdata on Indo Caribbean people might be captured.
And like you I do not see that the US Census should be an obstacle/help to those who wish to pursue a pan Caribbean ID linking all linguistic groups and ethnicities. That goal will nly be acheived by building institutions which unite these groups.
Persaud is half Afro Caribbean and half Indo-Caribbean. The articles regarding her campaign even explain and breakdown her heritage and mix.
How strange. If in fact you do know her, then there was no reason to act as though you did not understand the thrust of the initiative. Apparently, Persaud and you do not have the same perspective, and you are just as much against identifying with Indo-Caribbean people like her as much as many of them may have as well. Once again, the initiative allows for identification with African or Indian heritage among any others. So that complaint is nonsensical. Regardless, I see no issue with supporting her initiative.
Are you Trinidadian, Guyanese or another Caribbean group?
I doubt caribny knows her. If they did, they'd know that she is of African and East Indian descent from Guyana.
I have met her at a conference event, but I would not claim to personally know her.
Can't believe how this debate is still going on...
Afro-Caribbean (Black African)
Indo-Caribbean (Asian)
Other Caribbean
"Hispanic" Caribbean
^^^
Anyone have a problem with the categories?
West Indian as a ethnic group is a good idea but it means different things to different people.
In the UK we have Black British with a subgroup - African and Caribbean there's also a indo option don't get why it isn't the same for America...
Not to go off topic, but how are black people that have been living in Britain since ancient, medieval, and colonial times counted?
Liverpool is said to have the oldest black community in the UK, and Scotland has some old descended black communities as well, so how are they counted in the UK Censuses etc?
Because 1st and 2nd generation most Caribbeans tend to assimilate into the African American community.
I don't think this is a matter of assimilation or not. This is simply about race baiting and the fact that society tends to lump non AAs and their descendants with the AA paradigm perception. If Caribbeans had their own political clout or box in the Census we wouldn't even be having this very debate right now.
I don't see anyone challenging the flawed questionable Hispanic and Latino labels. If they don't have to be one dropped or ignored, then neither should groups like West Indians, Caribbeans, Louisiana Creoles, Cape Verdeans, Belizeans, Brazilians and their descendants that live in the USA.
Also did you ever come to consider intersectionality? There are black people in EVERY country in the globe, and we can't forget the unique space and cultural and ethnic identities and differences.
Even with Arabs, they can be of any race. Why would Arabs of African descent have to ignore their Arab cultural identity?
Culture is way more important than race, instead of some fueled politicized semantics.
Caribbean and AAs do not mean the same thing.
I believe that when it's NECESSARY, at times minorities and people of color should unite against the white power structure, but none have to give up their different and unique ethnic and cultural identities
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