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France, from its President to the French public, collectively suffer from the Napoleon complex. Their president believes France to be more relevant than it is on world stage when it wields little to no influence anywhere, and the public believe France to be so special that the pension problem can be solved by a magic trick when countries in much better shape all have way higher retirement age. It’s amusing.
I admire the French public for their willingness to protest, but yeah Macron is really taking for granted the security granted to France by NATO with his Russia policies recently, and this is just the icing on the cake. France has a number of islands in the Pacific such as New Caledonia and Tahiti. You’d think they’d appreciate not having China try and stir up conflict in that region
This is giving me Iraq war vibes all over again. The French went against the grain and basically called the war unethical and unnecessary. In response they received nonstop ridicule. Remember "Freedom Fries." Ultimately, they were vindicated. Should France actions be surprising to anyone. France has its own nukes, a robust military, and a decent economy. Unlike most other European states, it has no need to depend upon the U.S. for security. Makes since they care more about having an independent foreign policy.
This is giving me Iraq war vibes all over again. The French went against the grain and basically called the war unethical and unnecessary.
You are grasping for straws. First off, you can't compare an invasion with helping a nation defend itself against an invasion.
Secondly, France never said that we should hand over Taiwan to avoid conflict, it just tried to appear neutral to get some trade deals. France is actually very unhappy about China's support for Russia in the Ukraine war and Macron is expressing that view subtly in his speeches, for instance "Is Ukraine a Chinese diplomatic priority? Maybe not. But this dialogue helps us temper the comments of some about China's complacency with regards to Russia."
So no, it cannot be compared with the Iraq war. The best comparison is the situation before the Ukraine war when France tried to talk to Putin to avoid war. That didn't work and now France is completely against Russia. Don't expect a different outcome if China invades Taiwan.
This is giving me Iraq war vibes all over again. The French went against the grain and basically called the war unethical and unnecessary. In response they received nonstop ridicule. Remember "Freedom Fries." Ultimately, they were vindicated. Should France actions be surprising to anyone. France has its own nukes, a robust military, and a decent economy. Unlike most other European states, it has no need to depend upon the U.S. for security. Makes since they care more about having an independent foreign policy.
Camlon summed it up well. The Iraq war was an unprovoked invasion, and never should have happened. I was opposed to it from the start, I did my best to explain to people around me why it was senseless and unnecessary.
This is a vastly different situation, where China is being actively aggressive towards Taiwan to achieve its own goals of global premacy. Iraq was not doing this. On Iraq, the French government was basically aligned on opposing intervention; on China, the French government has sought to "clarify" its position, distancing itself from Macron in the process - to say nothing of the rest of the EU. Even where other European nations don't view Chinese aggression on Taiwan as a grave, direct threat, most of the rest of Europe has the sense to realize that an emboldened China is an emboldened Russia, and an emboldened Russia is bad for Europe.
Also, the French economy is in a precarious position, with young people discontent over the prospects of their future, and everyone upset over the increased in pension age. It's not to say they don't have a robust defense industry or generate wealth in their own right, but Macron's primary reason for cozying up to Xi was most likely for economic reasons. It was also to send a message to the US, voicing his displeasure over the AUKUS submarine deal. France has long gone its own way versus not only the US but the EU as a whole, so this isn't without precedent. It's his timing and general indifference to France's allies that is earning it ire. Which you, of course, admire based entirely on your dislike of the US/Western status quo. France's setting up extra Airbus assembly lines in China itself is an economic boon for China and will do little to improve the lives of the French people.
You are grasping for straws. First off, you can't compare an invasion with helping a nation defend itself against an invasion.
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No he isn't. The US is attempting to drum up support from abroad but this time a lot of nations are showing more resistance than usual. Although the US is trying to provoke China, using Taiwan as the bait it hasn't worked yet.
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Originally Posted by 415_s2k
Camlon summed it up well. .
No he didn't.
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Originally Posted by 415_s2k
. It's his timing and general indifference to France's allies that is earning it ire. Which you, of course, admire based entirely on your dislike of the US/Western status quo. France's setting up extra Airbus assembly lines in China itself is an economic boon for China and will do little to improve the lives of the French people.
...and which you abhor based entirely on your dislike of China's rise.
..and who are you to say what will or will not improve the lives of the French people? Why wouldn't their leader know more than you what is good for France?
No he isn't. The US is attempting to drum up support from abroad but this time a lot of nations are showing more resistance than usual. Although the US is trying to provoke China, using Taiwan as the bait it hasn't worked yet.
The US is trying to maintain what's left of the status quo, considering that China has aggressively asserted, over and over again, that it intends to create a world order with itself at the helm. The "support" vs "not support" blocs are pretty similar to what the US built up over Iraq, incidentally.
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No he didn't.
Another stunning rebuttal that rivals the best of the simpering wumaos on this forum for substance.
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...and which you abhor based entirely on your dislike of China's rise.
My main "abhorrence" to China's rise comes from the fact that it's an ethno-nationalist state with a rigid, authoritarian framework, which seeks to export its demands for global fealty and deferrencs to its means. I lived there long enough to understand the way things work, and when I imagine the rest of the world coming under the thumb of a nation that punishes its own citizens for voicing valid criticisms or even showing an accurate depiction of their day to day life. My reservations or dislike of the concept of a China-dominated world is much more lucid than a simple, knee-jerk idea that everything a nation or culture does is automatically "bad" and inaccurately reading history to accommodate that myopic viewpoint.
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..and who are you to say what will or will not improve the lives of the French people? Why wouldn't their leader know more than you what is good for France?
I mean, considering that Macron's support is in the 20%-ish range, there is widespread public anger due to his economic and social policies, and, again, his own party and government walked back from his comments on his visit with Xi and has been criticized in French media for it all the same, I would say that I am for the most part keeping in line with what the French people believe is best for themselves.
No he isn't. The US is attempting to drum up support from abroad but this time a lot of nations are showing more resistance than usual. Although the US is trying to provoke China, using Taiwan as the bait it hasn't worked yet.
And your sources are? Oh.. that's right, you refuse to provide sources.
The US is trying to maintain what's left of the status quo, considering that China has aggressively asserted, over and over again, that it intends to create a world order with itself at the helm. The "support" vs "not support" blocs are pretty similar to what the US built up over Iraq, incidentally.
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US is trying to maintain the status quo...any means necessary...coercion, war, whatever they we can!
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Originally Posted by 415_s2k
My main "abhorrence" to China's rise comes from the fact that it's an ethno-nationalist state with a rigid, authoritarian framework, which seeks to export its demands for global fealty and deferrencs to its means. .
Looks like more scare mongering. China gaining market share isn't China taking over the world. It does mean a spreading of the power/wealth though. US won't give that up without trying everything first....except actually producing more and working harder!
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Originally Posted by 415_s2k
I mean, considering that Macron's support is in the 20%-ish range, there is widespread public anger due to his economic and social policies, and, again, his own party and government walked back from his comments on his visit with Xi and has been criticized in French media for it all the same, I would say that I am for the most part keeping in line with what the French people believe is best for themselves.
I'd say you don't what is best for the people of France and their leader has a better idea. The 20% you provided doesn't reflect how the French think on the issue of China. They may not be pleased they have to work more years. From 62 to 64 isn't unreasonable though given the state of the country and the necessity to compete.
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Originally Posted by Camlon
And your sources are? Oh.. that's right, you refuse to provide sources.
And the argument "It is their fault that we invaded because they provoked us" is Hitleresque.
I won't stop you if you want to believe that China is doing badly, and the US is on the rise. Despite it being the opposite of reality. China is on the rise, the US is sliding.
Bringing Hitler into it is of course ridiculous.
China's economic problems are different than the US. They're going through economic stress due to lack of broad regulation due to growing pains with such a fast pace economy. It's unlike the US economy where we are sitting on a mountain of debt without the means to pay for it all. China have more economic development to keep their printing presses going and with the US gifting Russia's energy over to China, they are even stronger today than before.
Biden has been a terrible President, he has failed to maintain our alliance and global leadership. You wanna fight Russia using Ukraine but you forget what's at stake. The reason Obama didn't get involved with Russia because he knew what's at sake.
If Biden wants to tickle China by getting involved with Taiwan, this is another epic failure in the making.
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