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We all should be able to decide if we believe in gods or not. It's not a hard decision to make.
What's not to understand? It's fairly simple to understand the difference between an agnostic and an atheist. I guess it really confuses people when us agnostic atheists chime in.
It's fairly simple to understand the difference between an agnostic and an
atheist.
That's true. You're either an agnostic atheist, or claim to be a gnostic atheist. The first is what most atheists are, and the second is an untenable position one probably shouldn't take. A gnostic atheist would claim to "know" gods do not exist and requires evidence for support, while an agnostic atheist simply does not believe gods exist, while making no claims of knowledge and thus lacking the need to supply evidence. The agnostic atheist leaves the burden of proof squarely where it should rest, at the feet of the theist making the positive assertion.
That's true. You're either an agnostic atheist, or claim to be a gnostic atheist. The first is what most atheists are, and the second is an untenable position one probably shouldn't take.
I voted atheist as that is the self-description I would use in a casual conversation, but technically agnostic atheist is the more correct, complete description.
Functionally I work as a gnostic atheist, as any god that I have heard described is unsupported by any sort of evidence. For these gods I feel confident in asserting with a very high degree of confidence, tantamount to knowledge, that they do not exist.
I am agnostic as to a god-thing existing at all. I suppose it is possible, but any such god-thing is so remote and evidently uncaring that I might as well conduct my life as if the god thing did not exist.
I voted atheist as that is the self-description I would use in a casual conversation, but technically agnostic atheist is the more correct, complete description.
Functionally I work as a gnostic atheist, as any god that I have heard described is unsupported by any sort of evidence. For these gods I feel confident in asserting with a very high degree of confidence, tantamount to knowledge, that they do not exist.
I am agnostic as to a god-thing existing at all. I suppose it is possible, but any such god-thing is so remote and evidently uncaring that I might as well conduct my life as if the god thing did not exist.
Totally agree. There is no practical difference between most gnostic and agnostic atheists; it is more a technicality of philosophical position for most people. Like you, I don't claim actual knowledge and certitude that there are no god(s), but the probability is so vanishingly low that I don't conduct my life any differently than if I WAS gnostic about it.
Newly-minted atheists, especially deconverts, may put the likelihood of god(s) higher than my 0.01%, and those who hover anywhere near 50% seem to be the type of personality that may get stuck in that indecision and thus fit the more common theist conception of agnosticism as something distinct from atheism in more than a technical sense. That is why theists tend to (mostly wrongly) perceive agnosticism as on a slippery-slope continuum from theism to atheism -- a sort of "gateway drug" to atheism. The true "gateway drug" is skepticism, I think. Without that you don't have unbelief and the whole question of god's existence is never raised in the first place.
Why do people vacillate between theism and atheism? In my experience, their ability to believe is compromised by the evidence and by their experience, but they can't let go of the god abstraction nor face the implications of an impersonal universe. They are the ones who tend to object with their heart that there MUST be "something more" even after their mind is convinced that there is not. They will either remain tormented atheists or conflicted adherents of some other, less doctrinaire religion than they came out of.
Another reason is that they are addicted to the social support provided by theism, whether it's church fellowship or family acceptance. This makes the decision more painfully consequential. Although I did see an article just yesterday stating that loyalty to sports teams / franchises seems to be replacing church membership as a source of social support, so I guess there are other options in play ;-)
Although I did see an article just yesterday stating that loyalty to sports teams / franchises seems to be replacing church membership as a source of social support, so I guess there are other options in play ;-)
Ugh. Can't think which would be worst - mindless gods or mindless sports fans.
That actually brings something up for me - the sense of accomplishment that doesn't involve actually doing anything.
People who attend church, pray, tithe and such fall into the same category (for me) as people who say 'we won' when their sports team win a game. Um, no - you sat on your couch and shouted at the tv - the players who spent years in actual training, practice and play won the game. You had nothing to do with it. I see religion in much the same way. 'God' is invoked in having a hand in saving the sick because you 'prayed' for them. How about the doctors who treated them or the researchers who spent years developing a treatment?
I think this is why I have never really become invested in any sort of groups - I never went to church, I don't follow sports, etc.
I think this is why I have never really become invested in any sort of groups - I never went to church, I don't follow sports, etc.
Now that you mention it, that IS one of the turn-offs of sports for me as well. I have mentioned frequently my good-natured envy of my wife who has never been a theist, never even tempted, and is blissfully out of touch with all the hard work that goes into prying theism out of your brain once it's become infested with theism. But I guess I'm like that with regard to sports ... never saw the point, never entered my mind. Other than when I was about 10 and noticed all the hoo-raw about baseball and thought I'd give it a try. I read up on the game and joined the Little League. Lasted about 2 games before giving up in utter bafflement. Sort of like an unbeliever noticing all the carrying on about religion and going to a couple of church services and walking away scratching their head in puzzlement.
I always chalked it up to the simple fact I was a proto-geek at the time. It's now fashionable to ignore sports if you're in IT like I am. It wasn't then. But maybe it's like what we say about every child being born an atheist. Maybe we're all born "asportist" as well!
I always chalked it up to the simple fact I was a proto-geek at the time. It's now fashionable to ignore sports if you're in IT like I am. It wasn't then. But maybe it's like what we say about every child being born an atheist. Maybe we're all born "asportist" as well!
I would consider myself a geek, too. I'm the woman who thinks 'chick flicks' are dull and would get in line for the next Hobbit movie right now, if it wasn't so bloody cold out!
I've always thought there was a relationship between the geek mindset and the lack of 'group-think' of religion & sports.
Actually, I think the 2 are extremely different. It gets confusing to lump agnosticism along with atheism? I'm strictly atheist, don't believe in any deity controlling any part of my life. When I die, I become fertilizer, happily. But I've dated and are friends with agnostics, and they are completely different. To ME, they are no different from a theist in their NEED to shove down the idea of "possibility of a godlike person/thing." I'm not sure if it is for their own peace of mind, but it was no different from a die-hard Christian trying to convert me. So to ME, you either are an atheist or not.
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