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You know, one of the best sermons I ever heard took less than five minutes, and I remember it even though I heard it about 25 years ago.
Our priest got up that Sunday, and I paraphrase to the best of my memory the gist of it:
"You want to be like Jesus, huh? Can you walk on water? Heal the lame? Make the blind see? No, you can't do any of those things. The only way it is possible for you to be like Jesus is to humble yourself."
Methinks you might want to meditate on that, Charlie24.
Here endeth the lesson.
This reminds me of my college religion teacher and what he said on our first day of class.
He held up a bible and said something like: 'the bible is a book. This book was written, by men, at certain points in history to particular audiences for certain reasons. It did not fall out of they sky as is.'
He then said the class was not going to be 'bible study' and if that's what we were looking for we could go ahead and drop his class.
What assertion has the atheist made? OK, prove it!
WE prove it by a life that has completely changed. As the scripture says, we have become a new man. it's evident in the Christians life and can't be denied. God has been given the praise.
That makes sense if you believe that humans can't redeem themselves and need a form of redemption. It is just a solution to a problem with a wrapping that is very much human.
I agree ... The the problem gets down to understanding what humans are. I totally agree with you here.
I agree ... The the problem gets down to understanding what humans are. I totally agree with you here.
We can have an endless list of what humans are even the Christian list of sinful beings who can't save themselves. The behavior of trying to know what something is, is a very human thing. Maybe we are just asking the wrong questions.
The principles are there. Not so much 'already', but have been put there as social ethics evolve. And may evolve further. Arach mistakes atheism yet again because the principles that inform atheists (in general, I'd say, in the absence of a god -belief) are those of humanism, just as rationalism informs atheism (as a rationale) as to the logical basis. The only time 'deity' (the god -claim) comes into it is in the rejection of the god -claim and giving reasons why the evidence for it isn't good enough.
That in itself is nothing to do with principles or ethics, no more than with scientific research: something else that gets misconstrued, because neither the atheism nor the science is ethical or moral in itself, but the social knock - ons from atheism and science are of course, very important, but are not the atheism or the science in themselves.
If the principles have been put there then it was due to human preference. Nothing wrong with that because this reveals our humanity.
We can have an endless list of what humans are even the Christian list of sinful beings who can't save themselves. The behavior of trying to know what something is, is a very human thing. Maybe we are just asking the wrong questions.
yes, what I think is that we can list the types of people there are and predict how they would express a no god belief and a god belief.
yes, what are the right questions. Well, the process I use for sorting that out made cell phones. I can tell you that process is not based on my atheism.
What kind of principles? Principles that inform of a system that is already there or principles that people prefer? Both of these exist and the only time I worry about them is when a person doesn't recognize the difference.
yes, the most rational people are in middle-ish.
what scares me more than the ones you describe are people that can't get a handle on another person totally understanding what they mean and not agree with them.
The ones that scare me are the ones that can't see their weights are out of wack. weather its a life event or personal preference, it really doesn't matter. They think their weights are good.
I guess it boils down to knowing enough to think you are correct but not enough to know you are wrong.
This reminds me of my college religion teacher and what he said on our first day of class.
He held up a bible and said something like: 'the bible is a book. This book was written, by men, at certain points in history to particular audiences for certain reasons. It did not fall out of they sky as is.'
He then said the class was not going to be 'bible study' and if that's what we were looking for we could go ahead and drop his class.
I liked him
I got a B in that class.
Sounds like my favorite former priest! He said the same thing. And some of us have repeated it on these forums from time to time, too.
I can't speak for other Christians, so I will speak for myself only.
When the storms of life come knocking on my door, (that's a frequent event), i think, here we go again Lord.
I'm not worried because I know nothing will happen that the Lord has not allowed to happen. So whatever that happening is, I'm a peace with it. I accept it and do what I know is right according to God's Word.
That is very important to the Christian, doing what he knows is right according to the Word of God. It's important because the storm is just another test of ones faith, this is how God perfects faith, He is saying in this storm, Do you believe me and my promises, do you trust me to see you through it, will you prove it through your actions.
The Christians call this sanctification, a word found many times in scripture and very well known. It's a purifying process that ultimately brings one closer to God in relationship. This process lasts as long as the person lives.
I'm sorry to say that this process is not available for unbelievers. In fact they face these storms alone and all the unknown's that go with it.
In the middle of the night, in the storms of life, the fear sets in as at no other time. That's when the gentle voice of the Lord whispers to His child, everything is going to be ok.
So a child is taken, abused, and killed by a serial killer? No worries! Parents should be at peace! God's driving this bus!
You could substitute myriad other horrors of life. Rape? Terminal cancer? Wrongfully convicted and sentenced to life in prison with hardened criminals? It's all good! God's got a plan!
That's the 'logic' you're serving up here.
In reality, animals - humans and the several million other species of Animalia - have intense aversions to such things for a reason. It's the same reason we feel pain at the flame. Burnt flesh is deleterious. So is waltzing through life pretending that sufferings and wrongs is not good. It's bad. I mean, wrong doesn't even begin to describe it. It's not just wrongness you're trying to foist on us, it's toxicity bordering on evil.
PS - Your post, presented as a warning with the obligatory claim that you're 'sorry' to inform us of this, positively reeks with the gleeful satisfaction so common among certain Christians (neither all nor most, in my experience), who absolutely revel in the perception that nonbelievers are suffering for their nonbelief. The sadism in your satisfaction is obvious. That it's based on nonsense makes it no less repugnant a feeling for you to have.
The scripture tells us that great faith must greatly tested. As I said, it never ends in this life.
There comes a time when God is not felt, seems He's nowhere to be found. That's part of the great faith testing. It can get even more severe, God allowing you to suffer harm in His name.
The Apostles were very acquainted with this level of testing and they rejoiced that they were found worthy to suffer in His name.
It all seems so covenient...god gets credit for the good stuff and is never to blame for that bad. You've either brought that on yourself by your own lack of faith or as a test from god or satan. And even when you feel alone (because you really are) it's just god stepping back from you and looking on in a detached way. I prefer more parsimonious explanations.
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