If transportation vote fails, is there a plan B? (Atlanta: neighborhood, bankruptcy)

[cqholt]

Its a good project with the wrong technology. Spending the extra $400 million to make it heavy rail would allow people to use it without additional transfers and increase the ridership to around that 17,500 number just for Lindberg to Clifton. It would also avoid clogging congested streets. And it wouldn't require a different maintenance infrastructure.

HRT can go beyond North Decatur. If its LRT then it can connect to Avondale. Transferring is not that hard, people do it at Five Points and Lindbergh all the time. Y'all just being lazy

[gtcorndog]

Originally Posted by south-to-west

Thanks! Also, the estimated number of daily boardings is 17,500 not 10,000 as Corndog claims...

You are right, I do have my facts wrong. I was going off of memory and I got a few of them mixed up.

http://www.itsmarta.com/uploadedFile...t_4-9-2012.pdf

However, I said 10,000 new riders, but MARTA actually projects just 5,300 new riders by 2030. It might have 17,500 daily boardings (not riders), but if many of them already ride MARTA buses, then you aren't gaining much except a long term maintenance and operating cost expense.

My bad on the $900 vs. $700 million. I was working off of MARTA's page which had previously listed the project at $900 million. I guess we are getting some federal handout to cover the other $200 million.

[cabasse]

ridership projections for new lines have been underestimated in many cites - this was the case for Houston, SLC, Charlotte, Denver - for whatever reason (whether to paint it as a success when surpassed, or otherwise) I see no reason for this to be the case as well here - Emory+Emory Hospital and the CDC are huge employment centers, not to mention Emory's student population. 5,300 new riders seems like a HUGE underprojection.

[gtcorndog]

Originally Posted by cabasse

ridership projections for new lines have been underestimated in many cites - this was the case for Houston, SLC, Charlotte, Denver - for whatever reason (whether to paint it as a success when surpassed, or otherwise) I see no reason for this to be the case as well here - Emory+Emory Hospital and the CDC are huge employment centers, not to mention Emory's student population. 5,300 new riders seems like a HUGE underprojection.

And there are a laundry list of projects that have failed to meet projections. Building the line on the hopes that it outperforms the study which is attempting to justify the project is absurd.

[cabasse]

i gave some examples, and would love to see some of your own. just about every LRT line that I can think of built in recent years has outperformed expectations. in addition to the four above, some others i can think of: dallas, LA, st louis, minneapolis, portland the poster child, and sacramento. none of these (except LA) have a heavy rail backbone either.

and you think my suggestion is absurd. here's some sources...

http://grist.org/article/2010-06-25-...ht-rail-right/
http://www.wvec.com/news/regional/139572113.html
http://www.bizjournals.com/denver/ne...l-down-on.html
http://www.bizjournals.com/sacrament...08/daily9.html
http://www.examiner.com/article/los-...rail-ridership
http://www.startribune.com/local/wes...9.html?refer=y

[south-to-west]

Originally Posted by gtcorndog

My bad on the $900 vs. $700 million. I was working off of MARTA's page which had previously listed the project at $900 million. I guess we are getting some federal handout to cover the other $200 million.

You do realize that the total project cost is $700 million., don't you? Also do you realize most arterials are 80% federally funded whereas the Clifton Corridor isn't expected to receive any federal funding?

[gtcorndog]

Originally Posted by south-to-west

You do realize that the total project cost is $700 million., don't you? Also do you realize most arterials are 80% federally funded whereas the Clifton Corridor isn't expected to receive any federal funding?

Really son?

Re-read the project.
http://www.atlantaregionalroundtable...nal_report.pdf

MARTA says the route is a $1.1 billion project on their website.
http://www.itsmarta.com/uploadedFile...t_4-9-2012.pdf

Here are some more sources if you still are having trouble.
MARTA Approves Clifton Corridor Light Rail Project
MARTA Approves $1.16 Billion Clifton Corridor Light Rail Project - North Druid Hills-Briarcliff, GA Patch
MARTA approves $1.16bn for Clifton Corridor light rail project | Railly News 2.0 | Railway market's dailly news

If you are going to call someone out, get your facts right.

[shivtim]

^You guys are misunderstanding each other. $700 million is the total cost for light rail from Lindbergh to North Decatur. This is what is included in the T-SPLOST. $1.1 billion is the total cost of the entire project, from Lindbergh to Avondale. The idea is that the T-SPLOST will pay for most of the route, and the final couple of miles from North Decatur to Avondale will need to be funded by a different source (for example, leveraged federal funding or MARTA's normal budget).

A point that we've brought up over and over is that transit expansion is the only way to provide better access to the Clifton Corridor. Yes, it's expensive, but it's simply not possible to build a highway or widen roads in the area. If we want to see jobs added at Emory, CDC, and all of the other business on the corridor, we need to provide more mobility. By some measures, the corridor is actually the largest job center in the entire region. There is also a large student population and a lot of federal workers, two groups who are likely to use transit.

[shivtim]

As to the orginal question of "is there a Plan B," the answer is a resounding no. Mayor Reed has really explained this in his most recent interviews. The current T-SPLOST process has taken 4 years, and involved an unprecidented collaboration between democrats and republicans at both the local and statewide level. The business community is fully on-board. If this fails, none of these players will be likely to go back to the drawing board and come up with a new list of projects under the current TIA legislation. Reed, Deal, and Cagle have said so directly. The process of coming up with an entirely new way to solve our transportation problems could take another half decade or more.

The T-SPLOST is not perfect. But it's a start. It will fund a wide array of needed transportation projects. The projects were approved unanimously by our local elected officials, with unprecedented input from 200,000 local citizens. All of the money is raised locally and stays local. It will help ease congestion, provide new transit alternatives, improve air quality and our health, create jobs, and help our region remain competitive. I'm voting YES.

[cabasse]

EDIT: what shivtim said already...

1.15b is for the entire 8.8 mile line between lindbergh-avondale.

700m is for the first leg between lindbergh and emory/CDC, right in the very first PDF:

TIA‐M‐028
Clifton Corridor Transit ‐ Lindbergh Center to Emory
University / Centers for Disease Control Transit
Central
Subregion
DeKalb/Atla
nta $ 700,000,000 $ ‐ $ ‐ $ 700,000,000