Alright, I'll tentatively support the Northern Arc. (Atlanta, Savannah: lawyers, luxury)

[Hawknest]

No matter - it's not going to be built until Atlanta stops taking more water than it is entitled to from Lanier. That will in itself stop the northern expansion.

[Hawknest]

Originally Posted by cwkimbro

No,

In terms of passenger rail terminology for transit systems Metra is commuter rail and the EL with an electrified third rail is heavy rail. The El can move more people with faster stops and starts.

You will get confused on forums about transit initiatives otherwise...

I don't think you've ever been on a Metra train. Before it was Metra - the lines were the Milwaukee Road, Chicago NW and Rock Island Line. Those my friend are heavy rail. The engines use a cow and a calf. They are not switcher engines. The EL, Marta and the South Shore are electric and light rail by comparison. You can change the terminology to whatever pleases you, but you certainly never laid rail!

[MattCW]

Originally Posted by Hawknest

I don't think you've ever been on a Metra train. Before it was Metra - the lines were the Milwaukee Road, Chicago NW and Rock Island Line. Those my friend are heavy rail. The engines use a cow and a calf. They are not switcher engines. The EL, Marta and the South Shore are electric and light rail by comparison. You can change the terminology to whatever pleases you, but you certainly never laid rail!

So the APTA is wrong when they call subway-like systems Heavy Rail? Guess you should alert them immediately.
APTA: Rail Definitions

[cwkimbro]

Originally Posted by Hawknest

I don't think you've ever been on a Metra train. Before it was Metra - the lines were the Milwaukee Road, Chicago NW and Rock Island Line. Those my friend are heavy rail. The engines use a cow and a calf. They are not switcher engines. The EL, Marta and the South Shore are electric and light rail by comparison. You can change the terminology to whatever pleases you, but you certainly never laid rail!

It would do you a bit of good to become more educated on the subject before you start the condescending remarks. If you don't believe me... start a thread in the national forum or planning forum stating Metra is heavy rail and CTA's el is light rail (have fun with that!).

I'm not the one changing terminology. I'm telling you how government and transit planners call it (and always have). These are official terms. It has nothing to do with pleasing me and has nothing to do with anyone being a laborer laying rail.

You need to do some research on terminology used by the FTA and FRA, and most transit planners regarding transit operations.

You need to leave behind thoughts on the actual weight of --freight-- tracks. Two very different things. Commuter rail often uses freight tracks or old frieght tracks, which do hold more weight. However, Heavy rail transit uses their own dedicated tracks that aren't used for freight. The terms "heavy rail" and "light rail" is specifically for transit-only rails.

If you don't you will continually be confused by the discussions from planners, most people on these forums, and in the government.

http://www.apta.com/resources/statis...rship-APTA.pdf

Metra is actively listed as commuter rail. The El/CTA and MARTA rail is actively listed as heavy rail and it is done by how they are used and regulated for transit purposes.

From Metra's website Frequently Asked Questions

"What is Metra? It is the commuter rail agency...."

Light rail is typically smaller than what MARTA and the CTA uses, has no 3rd electrified rail, is not regulated as heavy rail (like MARTA and CTA), can operate on the streets, and has an overhead wire for power. Examples would be Denver, Dallas Dart, and Charlotta Lynx.

[cwkimbro]

Originally Posted by Hawknest

No matter - it's not going to be built until Atlanta stops taking more water than it is entitled to from Lanier. That will in itself stop the northern expansion.

Atlanta is entitled to the water. That was settled in court last year.

Atlanta only pulls out 1% of the whole river system's water. The federal government is not entitled to keep us from more of it, because they pool it up in Lake Lanier and took away the only feasible places to build a local reservoir.

There is plenty of water in a humid, sub tropical environment.

[Hawknest]

Originally Posted by MattCW

So the APTA is wrong when they call subway-like systems Heavy Rail? Guess you should alert them immediately.
APTA: Rail Definitions

Rail Definitions don't address the actual rail. The weight of the "rail" determines the type. You can manipulate the definitions all you like - but you cannot change the weight of the rail.

[MattCW]

Originally Posted by Hawknest

Rail Definitions don't address the actual rail. The weight of the "rail" determines the type. You can manipulate the definitions all you like - but you cannot change the weight of the rail.

No one cares about the actual rail itself. That's the job of the engineers, the people riding it don't care, the transit planners don't care, the elected officials don't care! The people care about the type of system, and that's it, and whether you like it or not, light rail is the lighter, sometimes street-running system with power usually drawn from overhead catenary, heavy rail is the heavier "subway" systems usually drawing power from third-rail, and commuter rail is the much larger trains running on existing national trackage under FRA jurisdiction.

[Hawknest]

Originally Posted by MattCW

No one cares about the actual rail itself. That's the job of the engineers, the people riding it don't care, the transit planners don't care, the elected officials don't care! The people care about the type of system, and that's it, and whether you like it or not, light rail is the lighter, sometimes street-running system with power usually drawn from overhead catenary, heavy rail is the heavier "subway" systems usually drawing power from third-rail, and commuter rail is the much larger trains running on existing national trackage under FRA jurisdiction.

Like I said you never laid it or possibly anything else

I am an engineer and I know my terminology and how you can manipulate it to suit your needs.

Heavy Rail: EMDiesel - cow and calf, or pusher engines

Light Rail: Electric only - no engines - overhead or third rail

It is determined by the weight of the rail to support the engines.

[Sound of Reason]

Originally Posted by cwkimbro

Atlanta is entitled to the water. That was settled in court last year.

Atlanta only pulls out 1% of the whole river system's water. The federal government is not entitled to keep us from more of it, because they pool it up in Lake Lanier and took away the only feasible places to build a local reservoir.

There is plenty of water in a humid, sub tropical environment.

Statements to which you were responding often come from Alabamans, Floridians, or someone from downstream in west-central or southwest Georgia. Most from Alabamans, however.

I find it crazy the way some of them talk about water, when they have a glut of it, courtesy of the TVA. Look at how many lakes they have, and big ones at that, with less than half the population to support it, while we have a much more paltry number of lakes, and smaller ones, too, with over double the population. Even then, they want what smaller supply that we have.

[MattCW]

Originally Posted by Hawknest

Like I said you never laid it or possibly anything else

I am an engineer and I know my terminology and how you can manipulate it to suit your needs.

Better tell the FTA and APTA that they're just "manipulating" things, they haven't heard yet.

Heavy Rail: EMDiesel - cow and calf, or pusher engines

Light Rail: Electric only - no engines - overhead or third rail

New Jersey's River Line, and Oceanside Sprinter are not electric, but officially and legally light rail despite still running on tracks used by FRA-compliant trains overnight.

It is determined by the weight of the rail to support the engines.

Not in this case.

I've provided sources to back my statements, you have not.