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Born, not gonna copy and paste to save space, but how then did GA 400 get built? It goes through the toniest of the tony places?
...That's good question and an excellent point.
Outside of I-285, Georgia 400 was built easily with virtually no resistance to speak of because there was very little existing development along the portion of the road outside of I-285 when the road was proposed in the mid-1950's and originally built between the late 1960's and the early 1980's.
By the time the Georgia 400 corridor started to really explode with heavy development in the 1980's, the OTP portion of the Georgia 400 freeway had already been built.
Which was the intention with the construction of Georgia 400 between Atlanta and Dahlonega, which was to open up the foothills of the Blue Ridge and Appalachian Mountains north of Atlanta for suburban development.
Inside of I-285, the Georgia 400 Extension between I-285 and I-85 was built with the State of Georgia agreeing to let MARTA build the current North heavy rail transit line between Buckhead and North Springs in the median of the expressway (and remove the tolls from the road after the bonds for its construction were paid-off) in exchange for Intown interests agreeing to let the state proceed with the construction of the road through one of the metro region's most highly-desired residential areas.
Anti-road Intown transit advocates got a major expansion of the heavy rail transit system with the construction of the MARTA North Line in the median of the new highway, so they basically stood down and allowed the State of Georgia to build a road that they likely would have blocked otherwise if not for the rail transit line.
It's also interesting that you mention Georgia 400 because there is a theory that the construction of the Georgia 400 Extension through the affluent areas of Buckhead and North Atlanta helped lead to the defeat of the long-ruling Georgia Democratic Party and the resulting cancellation of the unpopular Outer Perimeter/Northern Arc proposed highway about a decade or so later.
The theory goes that the construction of Georgia 400 in the early 1990's set the stage for the fierce public backlash against the Outer Perimeter and the Northern Arc in the early 2000's after the public saw what the construction of Georgia 400 did to two of the region's most desirable neighborhoods in Buckhead and North Atlanta when they were leveled and divided by a toll road.
Affluent OTPers who may have been in the path or near the path of the proposed Outer Perimeter decided that they did not want what happened to high-end Buckhead and North Atlanta to happen to their affluent outer-suburban neighborhoods.
The State of Georgia also did not have a bargaining chip to use to negotiate with Intown anti-road transit advocates and environmentalists for the construction of the Outer Perimeter/Northern Arc like they did in using the construction of the MARTA heavy rail transit line extension down the median of the expressway to suppress anti-road Intown opposition and get the Georgia 400 Extension built.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintmarks
I don't think conservatives are all that anti transit in their ideology. I think they grabbed onto it to gain political points in one area of the state, like they jumped on the changed state flage to gain political points in a completely different spectrum. I know this is overly simplistic, but conservatives are usually for growth and roads whereas liberals are more transit oriented.
...The OTP conservatives who opposed the Northern Arc in Forsyth, Cherokee and Bartow counties opposed the road because they feared the type of sprawl and overdevelopment that has overtaken Cobb and Gwinnett counties and did not want that type of development to overtake their areas.
Cherokee in particular has a very-strong anti-development contingent that does not want too many roads to be constructed for fear that too much road construction and residential development will bring the same type of sprawling development that has turned once outer-suburban Cobb and Gwinnett counties into increasingly urban districts of Metro Atlanta.
Some of the more libertine residents in or near the path of the proposed highway opposed the Northern Arc because they did not want the state to use Eminent Domain to take their property at a lower price so that they could sell their land to developers for a much-higher price than the state would have offered.
This was particularly the case in Forsyth where the county government permitted numerous residential developments directly in and near the path of the proposed highway before and immediately after it was cancelled.
Fact is, someone needs to take a lead and get something done. The state has tripled in population in my lifetime, but the same footprint of roadways is still basically the same ones that came on the map in my childhood of the 60s. Yes, they are wider and have more lanes, but we need some relief for the region.
...I completely agree with your excellent point that someone needs to take a lead and get something done, particularly with the state of Georgia tripling in population in your lifetime and the Greater Atlanta Metro region more than doubling in population since 1990 and nearly tripling in population since 1980.
But that something that gets done will more than likely not be a another attempt at building an overwhelmingly politically-unpopular Outer Perimeter/Northern Arc highway through areas that have repeatedly and forcefully expressed an extremely-strong desire against it.
State politicians in both major parties have already been severely burned twice by touching the white hot stove that large-scale road construction proposals can be in the road expansion-averse Greater Atlanta region.
After the Democrats were burned so badly after touching the white-hot stove that was the Northern Arc debacle and after the Republicans were burned so badly after touching the white-hot stove that was the T-SPLOST debacle (which many ITPers and OTPers thought had too much funding for road construction despite road funding amounts being meager when compared to competing states like Florida, North Carolina and Texas), there likely aren't any politicians left in the state of Georgia who would be likely to step out on what has repeatedly proven to be a dangerously-weak and politically-deadly and fragile tree limb and back the construction of a new expressway anywhere near the heavily-populated and politically-powerful Atlanta suburbs, much less back the construction of a wildly politically-unpopular expressway through the ultra-powerful Northern suburbs.
Given the seemingly wide-scale lack-of-popularity of large-scale road construction initiatives in the Atlanta region, if anything major is likely to be done, it is likely to be something along the lines of a large-scale transit expansion, but at this point it will likely be the better part of a decade after the political dominance of anti-transit interests has subsided.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintmarks
By the way, I am all for commuter rail and expansion of other transit too. I don't think such a thing should be an either/or proposition.
...Same here as I prefer taking a multimodal approach to executing transportation policy with adequate funding for both roads and transit.
But I am also pragmatic enough to know that attempting to resurrect an overwhelmingly-unpopular Outer Perimeter/Northern Arc and proposing to run it directly through some of the hottest and most-desired real estate markets and most highly-desired (and politically-powerful) neighborhoods (with some of the best public schools, etc) in the U.S. is just simply not happening.
The tony area within Walton HS cluster (along with the Lassiter HS, Sprayberry HS, Pope HS and Wheeler HS clusters) of East Cobb, which is regarded as the top public high school cluster in the state of Georgia, is not going to stand for the state proposing to build a freeway through their highly-affluent areas.
I am also pragmatic enough to know that the politically-dominant anti-transit interests will not allow the state to spend any money on a large-scale expansion of transit at anytime in the immediate future and that the popular anti-road interests will not allow the state to spend money on any type of large-scale road expansion without a HUGE investment being made in transit expansion first.
It is our unique transportation infrastructure investment-averse political environment, particularly after the defeat of the T-SPLOST, that is the reason why the Atlanta region will likely wander through the wilderness for the next few years before something (that will likely be transit-related) is done on transportation.
In the spirit of keeping things in one thread, I'd just like to call attention that the selected alternative for the Northwest Corridor Project was selected and is on their web site (it's 400+ pages): NWCP Homepage
In summary, the selected alternative was to bring 2 HOT lanes on I-75 north from where they end at Akers Mill past I-575 (and vice versa, south from somewhere up north past I-575 to connect with the existing HOV lane). 575 will get a HOT lane to Sixes Road.
I know everyone hates HOT lanes, but at this point I don't care. Given I live in Woodstock and commute downtown daily I'm glad to see a decision has finally been made. Now I guess it's just a matter of securing the funding...
Born to roll, great points all, again, just posting here and not taking time to re-paste...
My one argument about those that hate sprawl and use the argument that an outer perimeter bringing sprawl.... IT IS SPRAWLING ANYWAY!!!! Then the area gets built out and you don't have the ability to purchase undeveloped land and build the road without using unpopular practices like eminent domain and moving a lot of people out of the way.
My gripe is that the leaders that had the foresight to build 400 back in the day didn't get a northern loop (or a complete outer perimeter) on the drawing boards back then. The area has boomed anyway and now you don't have unlimited access connection between the most bustling areas in the state. It will backfire on us one day, sad to say. I must agree with most of your assertions that it is probably too late. The NIMBYs have won.
Saintmarks, you make an excellent point that the best time to have gotten an Outer Perimeter/Northern Arc highway built was back around the same time that the original OTP section of Georgia 400 was proposed and built in the 1950's-1970's when there was very-little existing development in the proposed path of the road, particularly in what are now the increasingly affluent northern outer-suburbs of Atlanta.
But we should also keep in mind that before the 1980's, there weren't necessarily too many people other than a handful of demographers and, of course, land developers, who seriously thought that Atlanta would grow into the major metropolis of 6 million people that it is today.
The forecasts by a few prescient demographers back in the 1950's and '60's that the area would one day grow past the 3-5 million inhabitant mark and have very-profound water and transportation issues were thought to be something akin to science fiction by many, including most political leaders.
It's like me telling you that in the next 40 years, the current 6 million-inhabitant Atlanta region will grow to 10-12 million people and the state of Georgia will leapfrog more heavily-populated states like Ohio, Pennsylvania and Illinois to become the 5th-most populated state in the Union behind only California, Texas, New York and Florida (...Something which despite the explosive population growth of the past few decades, still sounds kind of crazy at this point, right?).
Heck, when the I-285 Perimeter was initially proposed in the 1940's and '50's, the route of the highway was pretty much almost entirely well beyond Atlanta's outer limits of heavy development.
That meant that the need for an Outer Perimeter/Northern Arc highway to relieve heavy traffic (particularly heavy freight truck traffic) from I-285 was not fully recognized until about the late 1990's when much of the area in the path of the proposed road had already began to fill up with high-end residential development.
I completely agree with your observation that the area where the Outer Perimeter/Northern Arc is sprawling anyway, but there's an argument to be made that the area in and near the path of where the road was once proposed to run might have seen a lot more heavy commercial and multi-family development (apartments) than currently exists with no Outer Perimeter/Northern Arc.
This is the case particularly in Forsyth and Cherokee counties where the Northern Arc had the some of the most hard-core opposition where the area in and near the path of the Northern Arc has a lot of low-density high-end residential development (including a high school, Creekview High School which sits directly in the path of where the Northern Arc was supposed to run in Eastern Cherokee County).
That's as opposed to the much heavier industrial, commercial and multi-family residential (apartments) development that lines Interstate 75 and 85 in heavily-populated and increasingly-urban Cobb and Gwinnett Counties, which is the type of much heavier development that the residents of Forsyth and Cherokee counties feared the Northern Arc would bring to their counties instead of the high-end residential development that they wanted.
I also don't necessarily think that the Atlanta region will be as hurt over the long-term as it may seem by not executing a large-scale road expansion strategy.
With the physical and political inability of the State of Georgia to expand the road network on a large-scale, I see the long-term implementation of congestion pricing on all lanes of the freeway system in the Atlanta region (something which we are already seeing the beginnings of with the congestion pricing proposals on I-75 and on the current I-85 NE HOT Lanes, which are nothing but demonstration projects for a much-larger and all-expansive network of congestion-priced roadways in the future).
In the not-so-distant future, on the Northside of the Atlanta region where the Northern Arc was supposed to help relieve cross-regional traffic, I see the construction of multiple tightly-configured separated-grade intersections and interchanges at the busiest existing at-grade intersections in place of the construction of a new all-terrain expressway.
I see the construction of these separated-grade intersections/urban interchanges particularly happening at select busy intersections along Pleasant Hill Rd, State Bridge Rd, Jimmy Carter Blvd, Holcomb Bridge Rd (at the major junction of Georgia Highways 9, 120, 140 & 92 in Roswell), GA 120/Roswell Rd and GA 92.
I also see many existing low-slung suburban shopping centers in that area being converted into higher-density mixed-use commercial/residential developments over the long-term.
Over the long-term, particularly on the Northside of the Atlanta region where the Northern Arc was proposed to run to relieve through traffic pressure from the Top End Perimeter of I-285, despite the current strong (but rapidly-shrinking) anti-transit sentiments of many in the area, I see an increasingly-heavy dependency on mass transit out of necessity with the implementation of some cross-regional (Cobb-to-Gwinnett) mass transit lines.
Over possibly the not-so-long-term (possibly sometime in the 2020's), I see the implementation of a regional heavy rail transit line across the Top End Perimeter of I-285 between roughly Acworth in Northwestern Cobb County and either the Lawrenceville or Buford areas in Gwinnett County.
I also see the longer-term implementation of an east-west cross-regional heavy rail subway line that follows under Georgia Highway 120 between Lawrenceville and Marietta.
The east-west GA 120 regional heavy rail transit line would serve the cities/areas of Downtown Lawrenceville, the Gwinnett Place Mall area, Downtown Duluth, Johns Creek near the intersection of GA 120 & GA 141, Downtown Alpharetta, Downtown Roswell, the East Cobb area near GA 120 & Johnson Ferry Road and Downtown Marietta.
With the continuing high rates of population growth, and due to the dramatically-undersized and wholly-inadequate road network (for a region of 6 million people), and due to the both the political inability and physical inability to expand the road network without both interfering with existing development and proposing to do great harm to the quality-of-life of the highly-desired (and very politically-powerful) North Metro Atlanta suburbs, I see the Atlanta region becoming much more of a transit-heavy, highly transit-dependent region more in the mold of Atlanta's heavily-populated urban counterparts in the Northeastern quadrant of the continent (Chicago, Toronto, Boston, New York, Philadelphia, Baltimore-Washington).
Because of the extreme physical and political limits of the region's road network, I see the Atlanta region becoming even moreso transit-dependent in the mold of a Northeastern city than I do see the region continuing to try and emulate other automobile-dependent Sunbelt cities like Dallas, Houston, Phoenix, Los Angeles, etc, which (in addition to transit-dependent snowbelt cities like Chicago, Toronto and even Washington DC) are all cities with regional road networks that are much more robust and expansive than Atlanta's vastly undersized and extremely-limited road network.
It should also be noted that the aforementioned automobile-oriented Sunbelt cities with robust road networks (Dallas, Houston, Phoenix, L.A.) have all been working to substantially increase their amounts of investment in transit alternatives to driving at the same time that a severely road infrastructure-restricted Atlanta has basically been substantially decreasing its investment in transit alternatives to driving (along with basically substantially decreasing investment in road infrastructure).
Though, Houston and Dallas have also been substantially increasing their amount of investment in road infrastructure at the same time they are increasing investment in transit expansion, with Houston pursuing a MAXIMUM road expansion strategy while also pursuing a large-scale expansion of its rail transit system.
The reality is that, even if the region and the State of Georgia had the money on hand to do so, the Atlanta region could not expand the road network enough (both physically and politically) to keep up with population growth.
There's just no way around the reality that very-large major metro regions of 6 million people absolutely must have extensive amounts of transit infrastructure to move people within their environs.
That is particularly the case in very-large major metro regions with severely-limited road infrastructures like Atlanta where the population has kept growing up to and beyond the 6 million mark despite being dependent upon a road network that was only designed (or not designed) to handle the automobile movements of a metro region of not much more than 3 million people.
Atlanta will continue to grow and prosper, but it will do so with a much-heavier emphasis on transit than in its past years as a largely transit-averse automobile-overdependent boomtown.
Last edited by Born 2 Roll; 05-30-2013 at 07:11 PM..
In the spirit of keeping things in one thread, I'd just like to call attention that the selected alternative for the Northwest Corridor Project was selected and is on their web site (it's 400+ pages): NWCP Homepage
In summary, the selected alternative was to bring 2 HOT lanes on I-75 north from where they end at Akers Mill past I-575 (and vice versa, south from somewhere up north past I-575 to connect with the existing HOV lane). 575 will get a HOT lane to Sixes Road.
I know everyone hates HOT lanes, but at this point I don't care. Given I live in Woodstock and commute downtown daily I'm glad to see a decision has finally been made. Now I guess it's just a matter of securing the funding...
...It's interesting that you mentioned the I-75/I-575 Northwest Corridor Project.
That's because the selected alternative of 2 reversible HOT lanes on I-75 between Akers Mill Road and the I-575 merge/split junction and 1 reversible HOT lane on I-75 up to beyond Wade Green Road and 1 reversible HOT lane on I-575 up to Sixes Road is as a result of a massive downsizing of the project.
The current proposal for 1-2 reversible HOT lanes on Interstates 75 & 575 outside of I-285 was once a proposal that called for I-75 to be widened to as many 25 lanes just outside of I-285 with the addition of 4 HOT lanes, 4 TOT lanes (Truck-only Toll lanes) and BRT (Bus Rapid Transit) stations built over I-75.
Here is a link to that abandoned past proposal that the State of Georgia keeps up as an attempt to win brownie points with the anti-road expansion people by showing them what the current proposal has been downsized from: NW HOV/BRT Homepage
Of course, with seemingly any large-scale road-expansion proposal that the State of Georgia puts forth these days, the plan was abandoned for multiple reasons of great significance.
Those reasons of great significance included:
Cobb County opposing the project because the expansion of the I-75 right-of-way would have cost Cobb County tens-of-millions in revenue with the disruption and condemnation of the high-value commercial and industrial properties that line the road.
The state's powerful trucking lobby objecting to trucks being forced to use tolled truck-only lanes.
Much widespread public derision over the state spending so much money on such a massive and potentially disruptive road expansion after the Atlanta media outlets revealed the proposal to the public.
You also mention securing the funding for the project which is supposed to cost over $1 billion, which despite the State of Georgia getting the construction firms to pay the entire cost of designing and a chunk of the cost of building the project, I don't know if the state has access to the full amount needed to actually proceed with the construction of the project at this time.
I can't tell if the state is actually getting ready to actually proceed with construction on this project (as well as the HOT lane/Express lane projects that were recently announced on Interstates 75 South and 85 North), or if the announcement of the I-75/I-575 Northwest Corridor and the other projects are just some pre-election year political maneuvering that is being made in strategically politically-important corridors by Governor Deal, which I suspect is likely more the case than the state getting ready to proceed forward with all of these HOT lane/express lane projects that it seemingly has no money to fund.
It is no coincidence that the State of Georgia has recently announced projects to rebuild the I-285/GA 400 interchange as well as projects to add HOT lanes and express lanes to Interstate 75 & 575 Northwest, 85 North and 75 South.
That's because these are all projects on roads that either go directly through or connect directly to critically politically-important areas in Cobb and Cherokee counties (Interstates 75 & 575), North Fulton, Forsyth and East Cobb counties (I-285/GA 400 interchange), Gwinnett and Hall counties (I-85 Northeast HOT Lanes), and Henry County (I-75 South Express lanes).
The link in all of these announced road construction projects is that they all directly affect outlying suburban counties that played a key role in deciding the outcome of the 2010 GOP Gubernatorial Primary which Governor Deal won by only 2500 votes or so.
It appears that the hope is that Governor Deal is going to try and avoid a primary challenge by attempting to appease the Republican voters of those critical Republican counties by appearing to do something major (or at least care) about the often-wretched commutes of those important voters.
Born, I grew up in GA, spent most of my life there, but recent family events have caused me to be in the northern Dallas burbs for the last 9 years. I will return to GA someday so it remains improtant to me to be connected with what is going on there.
Dallas and Atlanta are very much alike. If you could magically erase Fort Worth and its immediate burbs, you almost have twin cities in every developmental case. Both have grown from northern transplants, both have the southern areas as majority minority, both have the wealthiest of the wealth immediately north of downtown (Park Cities in Dallas, Buckhead in Atlanta) and the northern burbs directly above them are the toniest in each.
Yet in this same era of the 60s, Dallas planners laid out a massive grid for continued growth in areas that were rural and seemingly would never experience great growth. We now have two toll ways that connect the northern burbs of Dallas on the east to west axis above 635 (Dallas' version of 285). They were on the books for years and the corridors were not built on. Today we have the Bush Turnpike and the Sam Rayburn turnpike that would be like Atlanta having a Marietta to Roswell to Duluth to Lawrenceville connection and the Sam Rayburn Tollway which would be similar to the proposed Northern Arc. Think how much better it would be to get around the northern burbs with roads like these? None of these have sparked the type of development that you talk about in inner ring burbs. Still the same type of growth that you see anyway.
That is my point about sprawl and roads... the northern burbs of Atlanta sprawled without these roads! Now you have to travel down 75 from Acworth to 285 and then back out 400 to get to Alpharetta... or you take 92 and stop at dozens of traffic lights.
Sad that Atlanta didn't look forward like these Dallas guys. Don't see why one area could plan and the other couldn't.
Born, I grew up in GA, spent most of my life there, but recent family events have caused me to be in the northern Dallas burbs for the last 9 years. I will return to GA someday so it remains improtant to me to be connected with what is going on there.
Dallas and Atlanta are very much alike. If you could magically erase Fort Worth and its immediate burbs, you almost have twin cities in every developmental case. Both have grown from northern transplants, both have the southern areas as majority minority, both have the wealthiest of the wealth immediately north of downtown (Park Cities in Dallas, Buckhead in Atlanta) and the northern burbs directly above them are the toniest in each.
...It's interesting that you compare Atlanta to Dallas as those two cities do have a lot of similarities in that they are both landlocked and explosively-growing Sunbelt cities with very-major and extremely-important international airports that both cities have made exceptionally-heavy investments in.
Also, as you mentioned, both Dallas and Atlanta have very-major and extremely-important loop roads (the I-635/LBJ Freeway in Dallas and the I-285 Perimeter in Atlanta) that serve a very-similar logistical function for both cities.
There are also some logistical and geographical similarities to the freeway networks and layouts of both cities with Dallas' I-35W North corridor being somewhat similar to Atlanta's I-75 Northwest Corridor, the Dallas North Tollway corridor being similar to Atlanta's Georgia 400 North corridor, Dallas' US 75 North being similar to Atlanta's I-85 Northeast Corridor, and the area of the North Dallas suburbs between the Grapevine and Lewisville Lakes in the NW and Lavon Lake and Lake Ray Hubbard in the NE being similar to the area North Metro Atlanta's "Golden Crescent" between Lakes Allatoona and Lanier.
Also, as you described, the Northside is the most affluent and most-desired area of both metro areas, but after that the similarities pretty much stop there.
That's because Dallas is built on and surrounded by what is largely (though not completely) flat and sparcely-wooded prairie land on the Southern Plains while Atlanta is built on and surrounded by heavily-wooded rolling to hilly to even mountainous topography on the Piedmont foothills of the Blue Ridge and Southern Appalachian Mountains.
It is that sharp difference in area topographies between the two cities that makes continuing large-scale road construction very-easy in the Dallas region and extremely, if not exceptionally, difficult in the Atlanta region.
It's probably not a stretch to say that people don't care when new highways are built over flat, treeless grassy plains.
But let the land be heavily-wooded rolling hills or mountains with old-growth forest and watch all hell break loose with the number of people that will race to oppose the proposed road construction project the loudest.
Another major difference between Dallas and Atlanta is that Dallas has a surface road network is based largely on a north-south, east-west grid network with no more than a mile between parallel divided 4-6 lane major surface roads while it may be as much as 7 miles between parallel divided 4-6 lane major surface roads in Atlanta.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintmarks
Yet in this same era of the 60s, Dallas planners laid out a massive grid for continued growth in areas that were rural and seemingly would never experience great growth. We now have two toll ways that connect the northern burbs of Dallas on the east to west axis above 635 (Dallas' version of 285). They were on the books for years and the corridors were not built on. Today we have the Bush Turnpike and the Sam Rayburn turnpike that would be like Atlanta having a Marietta to Roswell to Duluth to Lawrenceville connection and the Sam Rayburn Tollway which would be similar to the proposed Northern Arc. Think how much better it would be to get around the northern burbs with roads like these? None of these have sparked the type of development that you talk about in inner ring burbs. Still the same type of growth that you see anyway.
...I know of some of the major east-west roads on the Northside of Dallas outside of the LBJ Beltway that you mention (particularly the Bush Turnpike and the TX Hwy 121/Sam Rayburn Tollway) because I have some relatives that live off of the Sam Rayburn Tollway in the Ridgeview area of Plano.
I like Texas' road layouts with the untolled frontage roads and the tolled express lanes. I wish that Georgia could have that type of setup with its road network.
I also love how Texas does not hesitate to build new roads to serve their urban areas as needed (a concept that is largely anathema in the road expansion-averse Atlanta region).
But then again I guess that its a trade-off in that with the more-extensive road network in Texas you get flat, sparcely-wooded prairie but with the lack of roads in Georgia you get the stunning scenic natural beauty of the heavily-wooded rolling foothills and mountains of the Piedmont and the Southern Appalachians.
The fiercely-protective additude over the scenic natural beauty of the rolling to hilly to mountainous topography of the Piedmont and the foothills of the Southern Appalachians is the reason why it is so difficult to get new freeways built in the Atlanta region.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintmarks
That is my point about sprawl and roads... the northern burbs of Atlanta sprawled without these roads! Now you have to travel down 75 from Acworth to 285 and then back out 400 to get to Alpharetta... or you take 92 and stop at dozens of traffic lights.
LOL! Despite the stoplights, I would much prefer to take my chances on a 4-6 lane divided Highway 92 (and some back roads) between Acworth and Alpharetta rather than to get on I-75 and drive down to I-285 and back up 400 as going across 92 still seems much quicker than driving to the Perimeter and back, particularly distance-wise.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintmarks
Sad that Atlanta didn't look forward like these Dallas guys. Don't see why one area could plan and the other couldn't.
...That statement brings up another major difference between Dallas and Atlanta.
That major difference is that Dallas is located in an area where the energy industry (oil and natural gas) had sparked a booming economy in the immediate years after World War II, a development which cause North Texas leaders to think and assume that a sustained and possibly even virtually endless population and development boom could be likely moving forward from World War II.
This motivated the Dallas region to look really far into the future with the planning, development and construction of new reservoirs for water storage and flood control as well as the planning, development and construction of many new roads and even rail transit lines in later years.
The expectation of future growth in the Dallas region was reflected with the preservation of right-of-ways and physical space for future roads and even rail transit lines.
The Dallas region has been very good at keeping selected strips of land free of residential development for the future construction of roads and transit lines as needed.
The Atlanta region on the other hand was not necessarily very-expectant of growth as much as they were somewhat very hopeful for future massive growth that could one day move Atlanta into the big leagues of major cities.
The vision for massive future growth was also not necessarily embraced on the wide-scale amongst regional and state leaders in North Georgia as it was in North Texas, with many local, regional and some state leaders being highly-skeptical (and even resistant) of the concept that the Atlanta region would ever grow on the massive level and scale that it has.
It is because of these economic differences that Dallas has planned for future growth with locally-funded and built manmade reservoirs, roads and transit lines while Atlanta has been overwhelmingly a spectulative market with growth randomly popping up where ever land could be bought by and sold to real estate developers with little regard for planning for water and transportation infrastructure needs.
I am also somewhat familiar with the $5 billion effort to reconstruct and expand Interstate 635 across the Northside of Dallas with a project on a major roadway that serves much the same logistical function as the Interstate 285 Perimeter does across the Northside of Atlanta. LBJ Express Project - TEXpress Lanes provide commuters choices!
The unique politics of the Atlanta region have also played a major role with the State of Georgia increasingly taking a largely hands-off approach to transportation planning in large urban regions after a series of public defeats to large-scale road construction proposals and neighboring counties with substantial socioeconomic and geopolitical differences and hostile relationships often outright refusing to cooperate with other on transportation projects (see the traditionally adversarial relationship between Cobb and Fulton counties).
I do not like the idea of the Northern Arc, even with them now resurrecting it again, however, to see them being proactive in planning the road way BEFORE expansion is a welcome idea. Any place I have ever lived they build the roadways first to be ahead of the growth and it doesn't lead to traffic nightmare, here in Atlanta they growth happens and then they try to keep up with it afterwards, and that is why we have the mess we do. Then people complain about the traffic yet don't want the roads built, but the traffic and the growth are already there, at least we can be thankful that we have growth when many places are dying. I say we keep ahead of the game, that way it allows them to control the growth areas, instead of letting the development happen and then they are left with the task of trying to route new roads to accomdate it later. If they expanded and improved the existing Highway 20, which already has a huge space available on either side, with very little need to move houses or businesses along the route, and improve the flow for the traffic already using it and create a better flow as well as improve the roads from areas taht already connect to it, they already have half the problem solved as if by just improving on what is already there.
I do not like the idea of the Northern Arc, even with them now resurrecting it again, however, to see them being proactive in planning the road way BEFORE expansion is a welcome idea. Any place I have ever lived they build the roadways first to be ahead of the growth and it doesn't lead to traffic nightmare, here in Atlanta they growth happens and then they try to keep up with it afterwards, and that is why we have the mess we do. Then people complain about the traffic yet don't want the roads built, but the traffic and the growth are already there, at least we can be thankful that we have growth when many places are dying. I say we keep ahead of the game, that way it allows them to control the growth areas, instead of letting the development happen and then they are left with the task of trying to route new roads to accomdate it later. If they expanded and improved the existing Highway 20, which already has a huge space available on either side, with very little need to move houses or businesses along the route, and improve the flow for the traffic already using it and create a better flow as well as improve the roads from areas taht already connect to it, they already have half the problem solved as if by just improving on what is already there.
Someone is resurrecting the Northern Arc???
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