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Yes, I definitely like the second commuter rail option more than the first, but I think the article is a tad misleading there, though not due to the author's fault. If MARTA were to build a parallel track, it's ridiculous to think that it would be one single track that hosts all passenger service. Most likely it would literally be a single, newly-built track, to make the corridor double-track, which as cwkimbro is I think hinting, would enable more service than Xpress on rails. What's disturbing though is no mention of direct to downtown service. I really don't think any commuter rail plan can survive without some kind of downtown terminal, even if it's a single-track crammed somewhere in the gulch before a full MMPT.
Heck, if the bridge clearances are high enough, you could probably bring a platform right to the other side of a wall in Five Points: http://goo.gl/maps/P3XzT That right there is a track long enough for about 6 cars to platform at once. The only real complication is what type of rolling stock they use. If they use the surplus high-level (~48" above railhead) then they would have to build a high level platform which might have complications. If they buy new Bombardier BiLevels, they could get away with a 22" high platform, and maybe lower with a few "mini-highs" for level boarding. It wouldn't be much, and it wouldn't be pretty, but it would be functional, and provide a one-seat right right into Five Points.
Because it's not stopping at Jonesboro, the commuter rail will go on to Lovejoy and Griffin which are long distances. You also have to look at population density and rail capacity. The current MARTA frequencies of 10 minutes during rush hour mean 6,300 people per hour capacity. That's a LOT! South of Atlanta isn't exactly a high density area. Take a look at the costs as well, commuter rail costs up to about $20 Million per mile (and that's the very high end). HRT costs around $110 Million per mile.
I agree a train starting to Griffin is comparable to the distance of the example I used again it still goes back to commuter rail (CR) frequencies to HRT. The costs show a big difference but look at what you get. Rush hour only service which is primarily what CR is for. You'd be better running Xpress buses every 10-15 minutes apart for rush hour only service. I don't think HRT service should go that far for reasons you stated but at least to Jonesboro. The Clayton HRT stations are going to be set up like the current rail stations. Most are going to see ridership through the buses bring people into the stations. I'm sure there are going to be some transit oriented developments around the new stations as well but connecting buses to the station are still going to be the bread and butter.
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Originally Posted by MattCW
The two hours is a bit much, but for the long distance the train runs, that's not all that bad. You don't need 10 or even 20 minute headways all day long running down to Griffin, that's just silly. Yes, the New York City Subway heavy rail runs that far, but that's because NYC is just that big so you can run 20 miles and still be providing intra-city transportation.
I agree, trains to Griffin should NOT run that frequent. But to Jonesboro yes. If you look at the current rail system it is not a traditional HRT system. It is actually more like a CT that either goes to neighborhood stations or to pockets of density. Only through downtown and Midtown is it set up like a "traditional" HRT line.
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Originally Posted by MattCW
People were "fine" with it, because at least it was something better than buses. I spoke out against using LRT as opposed to HRT or commuter rail, but was willing to settle for LRT if that's all they were going to get.
Key word SETTLE. Why should we settle just to say we have rail in Clayton or anywhere for that matter? I'm all for rail but I'd rather have buses that run 5 minutes apart than to say I have a rail line that runs 30 minutes apart.
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Originally Posted by MattCW
Because there are no existing rail corridors to put commuter rail on, and that area is very dense, far denser than the area south of Atlanta.
That doesn't mean you can build a line. I agree that the area to the north is far more dense but the area to the south is far more transit dependent and will still have major ridership.
To clarify know that I'm in FULL SUPPORT of a commuter rail system for ATL. But there are areas within the core five counties I think need HRT and leave the CT for the other areas like Macon or Rome; even Gainesville or Athens. Commuter rail isn't an option for the inner core population; not with trains running every 30 minutes for rush hour. Save the money and put a bus there.
I agree a train starting to Griffin is comparable to the distance of the example I used again it still goes back to commuter rail (CR) frequencies to HRT. The costs show a big difference but look at what you get. Rush hour only service which is primarily what CR is for.
Wrong. Commuter rail is great for all day service, but because it's not serving the densest areas, it doesn't need 10-12 minute bidirectional service. HRT is overkill once you get past Forest Park, and maybe Southlake Mall.
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You'd be better running Xpress buses every 10-15 minutes apart for rush hour only service.
I agree, but that's not a real commuter rail system and not what they can do if they want to do it right.
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I agree, trains to Griffin should NOT run that frequent. But to Jonesboro yes. If you look at the current rail system it is not a traditional HRT system. It is actually more like a CT that either goes to neighborhood stations or to pockets of density. Only through downtown and Midtown is it set up like a "traditional" HRT line.
But it costs just as much as the "traditional" HRT lines so if you build it, it's a waste not to run it to its potential, which would be a waste on a lower-density corridor such as south Clayton into Lovejoy and Griffin.
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Key word SETTLE. Why should we settle just to say we have rail in Clayton or anywhere for that matter? I'm all for rail but I'd rather have buses that run 5 minutes apart than to say I have a rail line that runs 30 minutes apart.
Because for Cobb that's the best we could have gotten with the political situation. Elsewhere, like Clayton, it's about the best bang for the buck, and a $110 Million per mile HRT system to Jonesboro just isn't it, not when you can spend ~$10 Million per mile and adequately serve the area.
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That doesn't mean you can build a line. I agree that the area to the north is far more dense but the area to the south is far more transit dependent and will still have major ridership.
Well, for the area the Red Line extension will run, actually you can't. If you build a commuter rail line, you either have to force a transfer at North Springs, or you have to cut new right of way through Buckhead to the Lenox area to join the Norfolk Southern line. For building an all-new line, the cost of commuter rail is probably more than HRT because you have to deal with the FRA and there are a lot more regulations than with HRT.
Transit dependency is a percentage while ridership is a number. An area could have 100% transit dependency, but far less ridership than an area with 1% transit dependency. While those won't be the numbers for a Clayton vs. North Fulton comparison, you're looking at the same idea. Transit systems don't get measured for success by comparing transit-dependent riders, people look at ridership.
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To clarify know that I'm in FULL SUPPORT of a commuter rail system for ATL. But there are areas within the core five counties I think need HRT and leave the CT for the other areas like Macon or Rome; even Gainesville or Athens. Commuter rail isn't an option for the inner core population; not with trains running every 30 minutes for rush hour. Save the money and put a bus there.
And to clarify myself, I'm not against ANY HRT in Clayton, just against trying to use it for something when there's a better option for the distance. How full would MARTA's 6 car trains be leaving every 10 minutes from Jonesboro? How full would a 4-6 car commuter train be leaving every 20-30 minutes? But how much would each cost? When you do the math, you're spending far less per rider for the commuter rail than for the Heavy Rail, without significantly reducing the utility of the system. Heck, even most places along the New York area commuter rail roads get hour or greater headways off-peak.
I agree with bfarley30 that an urban county with a large population of transit-dependent residents like Clayton needs a Heavy Rail Transit-level of passenger rail service down to at least the Jonesboro area where the main central offices for Clayton County government (jails, courts, public safety, county operations, administrative offices, county commission, etc) are located.
But I also understand that the revenues from a 1% sales tax (not to mention the revenues from a 0.5% sales tax) are just simply nowhere near enough to fund HRT service through the county.
Under the current funding and operational setup for MARTA, if Clayton County can obtain commuter service along with local bus service by agreeing to pay a 1% sales tax, then the currently transit-deficient county should definitely take that opportunity to get transit service re-established within the county.
But over the long-term, not only should HRT service run to as far south as Jonesboro (the seat of government for one of Metro Atlanta's five urban core counties), but HRT service should continue south to the Atlanta Motor Speedway in Hampton (a major event center) and eventually should be extended to terminate in Griffin and should be self-funded with real estate revenues, a Value Capture taxing district that extends the length of the future HRT line, distance-based user fees and major private sponsorships.
A future regional HRT line on HRT-only grade-separated tracks along the right-of-way of the NS/S-Line should also be packaged with a the future conversion of US 19-41 into a managed arterial (grade separated intersections at the busiest junctions funded with variable electronic tolls) as a means of leveraging funds for both the US 19-41 roadway and the future HRT line.
But until HRT service can be funded with revenues beyond the current 1% sales tax apparatus, Clayton County needs to embrace the bus and commuter rail option that would come with joining MARTA at the 1% sales tax rate.
But over the long-term, not only should HRT service run to as far south as Jonesboro (the seat of government for one of Metro Atlanta's five urban core counties), but HRT service should continue south to the Atlanta Motor Speedway in Hampton (a major event center) and eventually should be extended to terminate in Griffin and should be self-funded with real estate revenues, a Value Capture taxing district that extends the length of the future HRT line, distance-based user fees and major private sponsorships.
you know you're talking HRT, right? not commuter rail. that's essentially an electrified subway line running 40 miles through the middle of nowhere to get to griffin. you don't think that's overkill?
i support having commuter rail running down that line all the way to macon. commuter rail is more economical for a project of that scale, plus imagine the maintenance for an HRT line that long... jeez. single tracking to griffin, anyone?
i think this project will help MARTA get its foot in the door on commuter rail, but it's not exactly a great long-term solution for clayton county. when the commuter rail gets extended to macon, the stops at southlake, clayton state, forest park, etc., will almost certainly be removed from the line.
you know you're talking HRT, right? not commuter rail. that's essentially an electrified subway line running 40 miles through the middle of nowhere to get to griffin. you don't think that's overkill?
It's not overkill because Griffin is only 12 miles from the Atlanta Motor Speedway (which because of its status as a major event center should naturally be a destination on an HRT line south of Atlanta).
Running a future HRT line to Griffin also would not be overkill because we would be using high-capacity transit service to guide growth and development to a place that is deserving of it in Griffin, which is the seat of government for an economically-struggling but high-growth potential county of just under 64,000 people that is home to 3 postsecondary institutions of note (Griffin Technical College, Southern Crescent Technical College and a branch campus of the University of Georgia).
By running the future HRT line to Griffin, we would also be able to bring in much more future revenue to fund the line with transit-owned commercial real estate development both along the line and along US 19-41 which as a future "managed arterial" would be packaged with the parallel high-capacity transit line into a multimodal supercorridor and leveraged into funding for both the US 19-41 roadway and the high-capacity passenger rail transit line (regional HRT to Griffin, regional commuter rail to Macon and Warner Robins).
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Originally Posted by bryantm3
i support having commuter rail running down that line all the way to macon. commuter rail is more economical for a project of that scale, plus imagine the maintenance for an HRT line that long... jeez. single tracking to griffin, anyone?
Revenue from the commercial real estate development along both the transit line and US 19-41 would be paying the capital and operating costs of the high-capacity transit line, so funding would not be a problem.
Besides, like I mentioned before, there's nowhere near enough revenue from the current 1% sales tax funding model to even think of funding HRT service through Clayton County, much less all the way to Griffin, so funding from commercial real estate development along the line would be a must to fund that level of future passenger rail transit service.
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Originally Posted by bryantm3
i think this project will help MARTA get its foot in the door on commuter rail, but it's not exactly a great long-term solution for clayton county.
I absolutely agree with this point. A county as urban as Clayton County needs Heavy Rail Transit service, not just commuter rail service.
Just because Clayton County is not a wealthy and highly-influential county on the Northside does not mean that the county does not deserve to have the same economic development, logistical and mobility opportunities that the wealthy Northside counties will undoubtedly receive when high-capacity passenger rail transit service is extended north out of Atlanta into Cobb, North Fulton and Gwinnett counties.
Southside counties like Clayton deserve to have the same economic development, logistical and improved mobility opportunities as counties on the much more politically and financially-powerful Northside.
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Originally Posted by bryantm3
when the commuter rail gets extended to macon, the stops at southlake, clayton state, forest park, etc., will almost certainly be removed from the line.
But extending regional commuter rail service to Macon and beyond would not mean that stops at places like Southlake Mall, Clayton State and Forest Park would not have to be removed from a commuter rail line through Clayton County...
...That's because for large regional commuter rail systems like Chicago's Metra, New York's Long Island Railroad, etc, there are many stretches of commuter rail track where stations are spaced as close as only every half-mile apart....So there should be no need to remove stops from stretches of a commuter rail line where there might be as much as 2 miles between stations south of Atlanta.
Besides, the more stations on a line, the more revenue for capital costs and operations that can be generated from mixed-use transit-oriented real estate development around stations and from fares from additional ridership.
Also, you can put as many stations on a line as you want, but just because there may be some stretches of track where stations may be as close as every one-half to one-fourth of a mile does mean that every train will stop at every station.
Some less-busy future high-capacity transit stations (like at a Battlecreek Road & GA 54 Jonesboro Road, a Tara Road/Bonanza, a Mundy Mill Road, etc) may only be served by a few trains per day, while busier stations (Southlake Mall, Clayton State, Jonesboro, Airport/Int'l Terminal) will likely be served by every train (both commuter rail and HRT) that travels along the tracks.
Here are some links to maps of Chicago's Metra, New York's Long Island Railroad (LIRR) and New Jersey's NJ Transit regional commuter rail systems to illustrate just how very-closely spaced some commuter rail stations can be on many stretches of commuter rail trackage in large major metro regions...
Now it looks like the initial line is only going from East Point to Jonesboro. I guess for a short 10 mile trip HRT transit seems more appropriate to me, especially when it can connect into the existing line and be an extension of the Gold or Red lines or even a new line that can connect Jonesboro to Emory. You are also adding in a ridership killer, especially choice riders: TRANSFERS! Most want a one seat ride. Not a transfer when you can inter-grade current MARTA HRT.
Last edited by bfarley30; 06-27-2014 at 04:23 PM..
Now it looks like the initial line is only going from East Point to Jonesboro. I guess for a short 10 mile trip HRT transit seems more appropriate to me, especially when it can connect into the existing line and be an extension of the Gold or Red lines or even a new line that can connect Jonesboro to Emory. You are also adding in a ridership killer, especially choice riders: TRANSFERS! Most want a one seat ride. Not a transfer when you can inter-grade current MARTA HRT.
Anyone have any idea how much more HRT would cost? I'm not sure why it would be substantially more. Electrifying the line? Having to build 2 sets of tracks in the ROW because they can't share with freight? Indian Springs station to Stonecrest Mall was, I think, only projected to be around $400-$450 million for a similar distance and they were starting from scratch in highway ROW.
Running commuter rail from Jonesboro to East Point and not beyond seems like a waste of a quarter million dollars. They could do park-n-rides cheaper and provide better service. Now HRT where they actually connect to the existing system without another transfer is a different story. Don't build just to build.
Also, HRT has the possibility of picking up choice riders from all over the South Metro who can't really use MARTA now. Jonesboro to East Point wouldn't pick them up with that extra transfer.
Anyone have any idea how much more HRT would cost? I'm not sure why it would be substantially more. Electrifying the line? Having to build 2 sets of tracks in the ROW because they can't share with freight? Indian Springs station to Stonecrest Mall was, I think, only projected to be around $400-$450 million for a similar distance and they were starting from scratch in highway ROW.
The going cost for HRT now is ~$110,000,000 per mile, or about $1.1 Billion for the 10 miles to Jonesboro. Electrification of an existing freight line is about $1.5 Million per mile, or about $15 Million for 10 miles. Frankly, 25kv 60Hz electrification is what we need to be doing, Denver is going something like that. The I-20 East cost is closer to $1.8 Billion, I'm not sure where you got $400-$450 Million from. If anything, I-20 East is slightly cheaper because there would only be 10 displacements (though some of that is shared with the BRT component I believe) because they are largely using GDOT RoW. I can't imagine any less than 20 displacements for a Jonesboro HRT especially after stations. so maybe a lot more.
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Running commuter rail from Jonesboro to East Point and not beyond seems like a waste of a quarter million dollars. They could do park-n-rides cheaper and provide better service. Now HRT where they actually connect to the existing system without another transfer is a different story. Don't build just to build.
It's a little bit of a waste, but I hope that they actually extend to Lovejoy in short order. I also hope they end up extending to downtown Atlanta, in fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the freight railroads insisted on that simply so they don't have to try and turn the commuter train on the mainline. We don't need a big, grand MMPT for a downtown terminal. A strip of concrete thrown down, with a hole punched through Five Points, and some stairs and an elevator up to Forsyth street would serve adequately until the MMPT came around.
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Originally Posted by bu2
Also, HRT has the possibility of picking up choice riders from all over the South Metro who can't really use MARTA now. Jonesboro to East Point wouldn't pick them up with that extra transfer.
I agree, which is why I hope they will extend to downtown as I said above. But the commuter train, especially if ran all day long, would pick up a lot of choice riders, and cost far less than HRT.
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