MARTA Expansion into Clayton = Long awaited Commuter Rail? (Atlanta, Lawrenceville: apartment complex, transfer to)

[bu2]

Originally Posted by Born 2 Roll

This is an excellent point.

If MARTA was better funded (and operated), reduced headways at the domestic terminal would not be a concern if an extension to Hapeville and beyond was built (...which if MARTA had been properly funded and operated from its inception, an extension to Hapeville and beyond likely would have (and should have) already been built by now).

That's a good observation that many people who ride MARTA to and from the Airport are likely choice riders.

But with the Atlanta Airport also being the largest center of employment in the state of Georgia (with over 58,000 people being employed at Hartsfield-Jackson Atlanta International Airport), not all people who use MARTA to and from the Atlanta Airport can necessarily be considered to be choice riders.

In fact, the dependency of non-choice riders on public transit to get to and from jobs at the Atlanta Airport has been a major reason why the lack of transit service has been has been so negatively-impactful on Clayton County...because Clayton County is a place where many lower-income airport employees live, lower-income employees who are much more likely to be without dependable personal transportation.

If there was some sort of connection on the Hapeville line to the international terminal and and the rest of the airport, it wouldn't be quite as convenient, but it would balance out losing the extra connection to the North and south terminals.

[Born 2 Roll]

Originally Posted by bu2

If there was some sort of connection on the Hapeville line to the international terminal and and the rest of the airport, it wouldn't be quite as convenient, but it would balance out losing the extra connection to the North and south terminals.

But that's the thing, a new heavy rail transit connection to the International Terminal side of the Atlanta Airport should not require the loss of any current or existing service to the Domestic Terminal side.

Any new heavy rail transit connection to the International Terminal side of the Atlanta Airport should be new service that is added to the MARTA heavy rail transit system in general, not subtracted from current Domestic Terminal side heavy rail transit service.

Any new heavy rail transit connection to the International Terminal side of the Atlanta Airport should also not just be extended only as far as the International Terminal, but should be extended to as far south as the Atlanta Motor Speedway by way of the Atlanta Farmers Market, Forest Park, Clayton State University, Southlake Mall, the Clayton County seat of government in Jonesboro, Lovejoy, and the Atlanta Motor Speedway in Hampton.

[toll_booth]

Originally Posted by cwkimbro

From my experience I'd say over half the people who use the airport station work at the airport. About half of those park at the college park station and are using it for cheaper parking.

Wow, half?

The big reason I wouldn't reduce headway is if you ride the route when a major convention or company meeting comes into town that route really picks up a heavy load of visitors, especially the first morning of the event.

If Cobb County ever decides to get with the times and finally allow MARTA expansion there, I think it might be worthwhile to have a Cobb-Airport line via the Arts Center station. That would (1) return the domestic terminal to having two lines again, and (2) imagine the convenience for many Cobb County residents to have a line that potentially connects the new Braves stadium, Atlantic Station, Midtown, downtown, and the airport--all without a single transfer.

Alternatively, if the Cobb line doesn't happen, they could just create a fifth line--say, the Grey Line--that runs Airport-Lenox. Meaning that the north-south lines would consist of the following:

-Airport-North Springs (or farther north) <- the existing Red Line
-(Somewhere in Clayton)-Doraville <- the existing Gold Line
-Airport-Lenox <- the proposed Grey Line

Why Lenox and not Lindbergh? Because there is no median railway between Lindbergh and Lenox. I.e., when North Springs trains only run to Lindbergh at night, they park just south of the station on that center railway, turn around, and make the trip back north. There are a few other places on the system with such a setup, including just northeast of Lenox station. You can visibly see it on Google maps right where the tracks come out from that building, next to the short-term parking lot.

[cqholt]

Transit gains traction in Atlanta region as Clayton may join MARTA; Sen. Beach says he’ll be state champion | SaportaReport

Brandon Beach, president and CEO of the Greater North Fulton Chamber of Commerce who also represents District 21 in the state Senate. “I will tell you this, I have never seen the spirit of cooperation like we have now. I believe every one wants regional transit.” - See more at: Transit gains traction in Atlanta region as Clayton may join MARTA; Sen. Beach says he’ll be state champion | SaportaReport

Except for Cobb County.

[atler8]

Great news there cq @ 3:07! Thanks for the link!
As a Clayton resident, I already am talking up the possibility of voting in the affirmative for MARTA in a referendum. I'm doing this with my neighbors & fellow GRTA Express riders.

[PKCorey]

It would be interesting if Douglas and Rockdale could join MARTA for limited bus service and rail expansion at half a penny.

[cwkimbro]

Originally Posted by PKCorey

It would be interesting if Douglas and Rockdale could join MARTA for limited bus service and rail expansion at half a penny.

I don't think that would be enough revenue


These are the top Georgia Counties by retail sales: (In thousands)


1 Gwinnett County, Georgia $13,857,021
2 Fulton County, Georgia $13,239,670
3 Cobb County, Georgia $10,480,711
4 DeKalb County, Georgia $7,973,387
....
6 Clayton County, Georgia $3,207,049
....
10 Hall County, Georgia $2,220,699
11 Cherokee County, Georgia $2,114,906
12 Douglas County, Georgia $2,055,804
13 Forsyth County, Georgia $1,960,919
14 Henry County, Georgia $1,907,354
....
19 Rockdale County, Georgia $1,450,095
(Non Atlanta area counties ommitted; I opted to leave Hall)

Georgia - Full List Of Counties By Total Retail Sales

[MattCW]

I don't know, for Rockdale if the 0.5% sales tax is applied directly to those numbers, that's $7 million per year. That should be enough to directly cover at least clockface Xpress service either to a MARTA station or straight to downtown. That's $19,000 per day. A county like Rockdale doesn't need more than park and ride service anyways whether that's rail or bus so Rockdale could be served by two routes along I-20 to the two Xpress park and rides.

[cwkimbro]

Originally Posted by MattCW

I don't know, for Rockdale if the 0.5% sales tax is applied directly to those numbers, that's $7 million per year. That should be enough to directly cover at least clockface Xpress service either to a MARTA station or straight to downtown. That's $19,000 per day. A county like Rockdale doesn't need more than park and ride service anyways whether that's rail or bus so Rockdale could be served by two routes along I-20 to the two Xpress park and rides.

The state already pays for 2 Xpress routes in Rockdale, so no reason for the sales tax/joining MARTA just for that.

I also think if the county had the sales tax their expectations would be a bit higher, although most ares of that county couldn't benefit form local busing. The central areas could, especially with connections to stonecrest and Dekalb Medical Hillandale.

Admittedly, this service would be geared more towards those who can't drive for some reason or another.

So I looked for a comparison...
Gwinnett Transit ran a $7.7 million operating fund in 2013 (This does not include capital costs). The county only had to subsidize $2.7m of that, of course there is an oddity with Gwinnett Transit. Xpress pays them for use of their buses, so that annual subsidy would be higher if the state didn't fund that type of service.

Factor in you can only use half the sales tax on operations, but you get fare revenue. Also factor in debt service on startup costs. Conyers could probably operate a decent local bus service and boosted Xpress service, but there just isn't the money to run rail.

[MattCW]

Originally Posted by cwkimbro

The state already pays for 2 Xpress routes in Rockdale, so no reason for the sales tax/joining MARTA just for that.

Yes, they do pay for the peak-period routes, but I'm afraid if the county wanted more than just the peak periods, we would have to pay something. Exactly how that would work I don't know, not a lot of people around here would be thrilled to see MARTA buses prowling about, but they're already seeing the XPress routes so perhaps additional XPress trips could be funded. Though if Rockdale joined the MARTA tax, that throws a decent wrench into the works if the Xpress buses are to be used.

I also think if the county had the sales tax their expectations would be a bit higher, although most ares of that county couldn't benefit form local busing. The central areas could, especially with connections to stonecrest and Dekalb Medical Hillandale.

While I'm sure there are people that could use the local service, I really don't think that would be enough to justify all day local service. The only corridor dense enough for a bus in Conyers to even come close to making sense is GA-20 from the Honeycreek area up to Olde Town. But even then that's only really valuable if there's a fast connection to Atlanta such as additional XPress frequencies.

Admittedly, this service would be geared more towards those who can't drive for some reason or another.

Which is going to keep it unpalatable to a lot of people who already tolerate express service, but unfortunately see local bus service as nothing but a way to bring poor black criminals to the county. I've gone round and round with people like that where I get the response "look what MARTA did for Lithonia!" All Lithonia has is bus service. While I personally don't think that MARTA buses contributed to Lithonia's decline, I do think that rail service could help, but unfortunately most people out here only see the useless MARTA buses and not the rail component.

That's one reason I say to do express routes rather than local service. The express service would be similar enough to rail that it could get people in Rockdale interested enough in an even faster and easier trip to bring rail to the county.

So I looked for a comparison...
Gwinnett Transit ran a $7.7 million operating fund in 2013 (This does not include capital costs). The county only had to subsidize $2.7m of that, of course there is an oddity with Gwinnett Transit. Xpress pays them for use of their buses, so that annual subsidy would be higher if the state didn't fund that type of service.

Factor in you can only use half the sales tax on operations, but you get fare revenue. Also factor in debt service on startup costs. Conyers could probably operate a decent local bus service and boosted Xpress service, but there just isn't the money to run rail.

Those numbers would bode well for Rockdale service. Rockdale is small and wouldn't need nearly as many routes, nor routes as long as Gwinnett County within the county itself. Heck, one route serving both P&Rs might even work well. If they run long, their destination would likely be either Indian Creek or downtown Atlanta. With the transfer at Indian Creek and having to take the right turn up I-285, service direct to Atlanta would probably be better. It's a 20 minute train ride from Indian Creek to Five Points, and the difference in length to the stations is 7 miles. The HRT route for I-20 East is 48 minutes from Stonecrest to Atlanta, while the HRT-1 alternative right down I-20 to Garnett would have been 40 minutes, but those 8 minutes are only for travel time difference, if you add a transfer like an express bus to Indian Creek would involve, you're looking at at least 12 extra minutes and possibly 15 depending on how much allowance the schedule has to make for traffic.

I'm not sure MARTA rail couldn't be brought to Rockdale. The I-20 East project is going to put a station in our backyard at Stonecrest. From there it's 2 miles along I-20 across the border to Sigman Rd. The route to Stonecrest is going to be built anyways whether or not Rockdale Joins, but if Rockdale joined, it could bring the route into its own borders and with Stonecrest's traffic, dramatically shorten travel times for park and ride passengers.