Will Gwinnett County join MARTA? Not likely, officials say (Atlanta: fit in, to buy)

[arjay57]

Why not just let Gwinnett be Gwinnett?

When they are ready for more mass transit they will jump on it with both feet.

[fourthwarden]

Originally Posted by arjay57

Why not just let Gwinnett be Gwinnett?

When they are ready for more mass transit they will jump on it with both feet.

The disparity between what polling data we have an the leadership's views shows that to be absolutely incorrect.

[cwkimbro]

Originally Posted by fourthwarden

I have, time and time again, stated how Cobb and Gwinnett should actively negotiate to maintain their money for projects in their county.

I have, in detail, explained how they should follow Clayton's lead and dedicate a large portion of their revenue for high-capacity transit that serves their county, with the rest being set aside for a full bus network that serves their county.

I have made no assertions that the existing counties should 'take' money from Cobb or Gwinnett, with the sole exceptions of building the first parts of Cobb and Gwinnett specific lines.

All of that is directly reflected and showcased in the work that I've done for the two counties. You can go read about it in both campaign websites.



I listen plenty, and I have changed my stance when given good enough reason to. I have the math to show how Cobb and Gwinnett could get an amazing deal out of MARTA if only they'd try, though, and I have yet to really see a compelling argument to abandon that place.

Especially from those who mischaracterize me, and don't understand my position.

1. Like it or not, CoA IS the one central area. The combined economic presence of the Midtown-Downtown Spine, let alone Buckhead, FAR outshines any of the isolated, dispersed economic hubs. Not to mention the geographic center that it represents within the metro
2. Even so, I have proposed TONS of high-capacity routes in the form of Bus Rapid Transit lines to fill in gaps between the commuter rail and heavy rail spokes.
3. I have further proposed top-end heavy rail for the explicit service of moving between the northern nodes and corridors.
4. Finally, I have proposed extensive expansion of GRTA to act as cross-county transit where the above is not within reach.

Yet, apparently, I am too focused on serving the core city, and just want to take money out of Cobb and Gwinnett?

The statement I replied directly to is not that of one who listens...


The problem is there are only two options: 1) Go with Marta in a state dictated one-size-fits all tax or 2) Go at it alone

The first option does not allow for active negotiations. It is an all in 1% retail sales tax and 1% less in sales tax that can be collected for other local purposes.

That 1% is fixed. All in or not. There is no negotiable amount involved.

It is a wealth transfer given the disparity of needed service levels in the long-run, especially given the high amount of Gwinnett commuters that are not traveling to/from Marta key service areas. (ie. many are going to Tucker/Mtn Industrial, Alpharetta, Cumberland, and areas that will likely never be directly served by a train station).


Give this... everytime Primal has come up with a wide variety of other ideas, you stick to a.... things must stay the same = intown keeps power, but wants money from Cobb and Gwinnett and not merely expansion into those counties.

Something has to give or you are not in the conversation.

[Gulch]

Originally Posted by cwkimbro

Give this... everytime Primal has come up with a wide variety of other ideas, you stick to a.... things must stay the same = intown keeps power, but wants money from Cobb and Gwinnett and not merely expansion into those counties.

Something has to give or you are not in the conversation.

You do realize that if Cobb and Gwinnett joined MARTA they would get proportional representation on the MARTA board, right?

[cwkimbro]

Originally Posted by fourthwarden

The disparity between what polling data we have an the leadership's views shows that to be absolutely incorrect.

This is 'absolutely incorrect.'

Polling data shows people are increasingly interested in vague terms of wanting transit. You're just getting over-excited at the increasing interest and forgetting the other side of things.

Polling data does not show people overwhelmingly want a MARTA tax. Reality is that vote would be closer to 50/50.

That does not mean there is a disparity as much as being on an edge of going one way or the other.

[Gulch]

Originally Posted by arjay57

Why not just let Gwinnett be Gwinnett?

When they are ready for more mass transit they will jump on it with both feet.

That seems to be working out pretty well for them:

[cwkimbro]

Originally Posted by Gulch

You do realize that if Cobb and Gwinnett joined MARTA they would get proportional representation on the MARTA board, right?

But we are in at a fixed 1%.

There is no negotiation, which is what I was responding to.

Merely having a representative on that board does not make these problems go away.

It doesn't ensure we can have enough to expand our school system. It doesn't ensure that we get all our tax dollars spent in Gwinnett (or what we really need that much transit in Gwinnett...That is afterall why MARTA already does not serve their outlying areas very much).

This is why the state needs to continue forward on any ideas for changing transit governance, funding, and taxation first.

[fourthwarden]

Originally Posted by cwkimbro

The statement I replied directly to is not that of one who listens...

Just because I don't agree doesn't mean I'm not listening. Just because I reject certain conclusions doesn't mean I haven't considered the positions or ideas that lead to them.

The problem is there are only two options: 1) Go with Marta in a state dictated one-size-fits all tax or 2) Go at it alone

The first option does not allow for active negotiations. It is an all in 1% retail sales tax and 1% less in sales tax that can be collected for other local purposes.

That 1% is fixed. All in or not. There is no negotiable amount involved.

Well, first of all that's not even true. Just as Clayton did, Gwinnett and Cobb are free to offer a half-percent, or any other value of sales tax as they see fit. MARTA is equally allowed to reject that offer. That's still negotiation.

With that sales tax, though, they have tons of room to negotiate terms and allocation amounts.

It may be unnecessarily restricted, but that's not at all a 1-size fit all scenario. There are options.

Besides, having so much funding flexibility hasn't seemed to really do wonders for Cobb Linc or GCT. Sometimes having a singular, dedicated funding source is better than having a full suite of options that are never used.

It is a wealth transfer given the disparity of needed service levels in the long-run, especially given the high amount of Gwinnett commuters that are not traveling to/from Marta key service areas. (ie. many are going to Tucker/Mtn Industrial, Alpharetta, Cumberland, and areas that will likely never be directly served by a train station).

And this is as opposed to what? A state level agency that also 'transfers' wealth? Please.

I've already pointed out that both Gwinnett and Cobb would have plenty of negotiating power to ensure that they 'get what they pay for' out of the agency until the sales tax comes up for re-approval.

Besides, Alpharetta is planned to get a couple of heavy rail stations, if Cobb joined then Cumberland would get a heavy rail station, and Tucker/Northlake would get a commuter rail station if Gwinnett joined. That, and I absolutely think part of Gwinnett's and Cobb's terms for joining the system should be BRT lines going to those places from wider areas of the county.

Give this... everytime Primal has come up with a wide variety of other ideas, you stick to a.... things must stay the same = intown keeps power, but wants money from Cobb and Gwinnett and not merely expansion into those counties.

This is absolutely false. First of all, I have said that we must retain local representation AND THAT INCLUDES Cobb and Gwinnett representatives joining the MARTA board. Second of all, I have agreed that allowing the state reps to be voting members on the MARTA board would be a fine idea.

What I don't want, is for EITHER the suburban/exurban interests or the urban interests to override one another. The MARTA board maintains this balance for the core counties, while a larger state solution for the wider region, which I have supported, would represent the outer areas as they see needed to be.

And, through ALL of that, I have not once said that Gwinnett and Cobb should be giving money to the existing service areas over the simple lead ins to their specific routes.

Something has to give or you are not in the conversation.

And yet so much is being given in before the conversation has even been allowed to happen.

Originally Posted by cwkimbro

This is 'absolutely incorrect.'

Polling data shows people are increasingly interested in vague terms of wanting transit. You're just getting over-excited at the increasing interest and forgetting the other side of things.

Polling data does not show people overwhelmingly want a MARTA tax. Reality is that vote would be closer to 50/50.

That does not mean there is a disparity as much as being on an edge of going one way or the other.

It means that there is a disparity between not even entertaining the idea given a know, and potentially under-selling, 50% approval. If the leadership were following the wishes of their constituents, they'd be both investigating what joining MARTA would look like and running their own transit studies. Instead, they're fully ignoring the possibility of joining MARTA all together.

Remember, that data is at least 2-years out of date with a full interstate collapse between then and now.

I'm not over-excited, I'm just not rolling over.

[cwkimbro]

Fourth warden,


You're wrong.

State law that governs MARTA does not allow for that type of negotiation. MARTA is not a private company. It is set up by state law and it must act in accordance of state law and its members join and pay into only in accordance with state law.

Do not confuse ideas people float in the public as law.


Please see my original post that has gone ignored. You're missing alot of things.

There are some real concerns here that are being ignored and too many in this thread got to lambasting Gwinnett's leadership without really considering the differences in tax income and expenditures that different parts of our region have.

[cwkimbro]

Originally Posted by fourthwarden

J

It means that there is a disparity between not even entertaining the idea given a know, and potentially under-selling, 50% approval. If the leadership were following the wishes of their constituents, they'd be both investigating what joining MARTA would look like and running their own transit studies. Instead, they're fully ignoring the possibility of joining MARTA all together.

Remember, that data is at least 2-years out of date with a full interstate collapse between then and now.

I'm not over-excited, I'm just not rolling over.

So things are 50/50.... It is what it is ... call it what it is... don't lie.

You're complaining about leadership not choosing to pick the one side you want.

Arguing against that is not picking sides. It is not correct to troll the idea that Gwinnett's leaders are soo far out of touch with their constituents. It is just amped up rhetoric when you're trying to divisively choose the side you want to cheerlead.