Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Only partially. It's not 'any other percent', but it certainly is allowed to enter at only 0.5% sales tax.
Quote:
State law that governs MARTA does not allow for that type of negotiation. MARTA is not a private company. It is set up by state law and it must act in accordance of state law and its members join and pay into only in accordance with state law.
A local governing body which, on January 1, 1988, is not a party to the Rapid Transit Contract and Assistance Agreement specified in subsection (k) of this Section may enter into a rapid transit contract to provide public transportation services and facilities other than any extension of or addition to the Authority ́s existing rail rapid transit system and may levy a retail sales and use tax authorized under subsection (a) of this Section at the rate of either one-half (1/2%) percent or one (1%) percent, as determined by that contract between such local governing body and the Authority.
Emphasis mine. At the time, subsection (k) only included DeKalb, Fulton, and the City of Atlanta. That has since changed to include Clayton.
Quote:
Do not confuse ideas people float in the public as law.
Well, it's a good thing I looked at the laws, then. Oh, and that wasn't an idea that was floated. The Clayton County Board of Commissioners' initial proposal to MARTA was for the county to join at 0.5%.
Quote:
Please see my original post that has gone ignored. You're missing alot of things.
I'll get to it eventually.
Quote:
There are some real concerns here that are being ignored and too many in this thread got to lambasting Gwinnett's leadership without really considering the differences in tax income and expenditures that different parts of our region have.
I'm lambasting the leadership for ignoring a very real position of their citizens, yes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwkimbro
So things are 50/50.... It is what it is ... call it what it is... don't lie.
I haven't. I've explicitly said 50%, as we last saw 2 years ago before a major transportation network failure and the approved expansion of MARTA within the CoA.
I would love to see more recent numbers, no matter which direction they've gone, but don't underplay them.
Quote:
You're complaining about leadership not choosing to pick the one side you want.
Only if you ignore the part where I said the leadership should be doing both since half of their citizens want the thing they aren't doing.
I'm complaining that they're overly prioritizing one thing when they have no legitimate reason to.
Quote:
Arguing against that is not picking sides. It is not correct to troll the idea that Gwinnett's leaders are soo far out of touch with their constituents. It is just amped up rhetoric when you're trying to divisively choose the side you want to cheerlead.
I'm not trolling it. We have the data and can see what they're doing. They are actively ignoring at least 50% of likely voters' wishes to join MARTA.
Without solid evidence that the will of the people actually is to reject MARTA, I can not consider it realistic to do the same.
The will of the people is irrelevant. We don't have a voice. We never get a voice on this whole matter. Ever.
Yeah, if there were a referendum in the midterm election of November of 2018, for all voters in Cobb and Gwinnett counties, on the question of whether to join MARTA (the current MARTA), and pay a 1% sales tax for mass transit services, there would be a chance of it passing. (No guarantee by any means, but at least a chance.)
But that doesn't matter. Because the leadership apparatus of those 2 counties will never allow that vote to take place. And there is just not enough public will to replace the leadership. Most of the public is not that passionate about this particular issue, enough to be passionate about a lack of confidence in current county leadership. It could happen, it would happen, but it's a decade off or more. And by then, I don't think joining the MARTA as we currently know it, will be a thing anymore.
And anyway, as cwkimbro points out, maybe there are actually decent reasons for Gwinnett and Cobb not to want to necessarily join MARTA, or at least MARTA as we currently know it.
Maybe I've been wrong to assume that there's no good reason, and just haven't thought about it enough.
Anyway, the more I think about this topic and debate this with you guys and discuss different scenarios, the more I actually might be totally fine with an end result that's something less than Cobb and Gwinnett joining MARTA in full.
Particularly in Gwinnett. Gwinnett has a high population because it's so residential-focused and it's geographically large. But it is the least urban of the 5 counties. It's the only of the 5 counties that's completely OTP. It's the furthest from Atlanta, both in terms of the innermost parts of the county, and the fact that Lawrenceville and the midpoint area of the county is twice as far from Downtown Atlanta as Marietta and Jonesboro are (which are each about the same distance). Gwinnett has an entire other suburban county (DeKalb) between it and Atlanta. And the only section that MARTA would really need to operate in, is the Peachtree Corners area, just because of the way Fulton County is shaped.
So, again, maybe all that's needed in terms of MARTA in Gwinnett, is some flexibility around MARTA being able to operate in the inner areas of the county, or maybe in some fashion out to Gwinnett Place. And something along 141 in Peachtree Corners. But there's nothing about the transit need for most of Gwinnett that absolutely would have to be provided by MARTA. Express bus service or commuter rail service could be provided by GCT or GRTA. Funding is the main issue there, not necessarily the branding. Yes MARTA has experience operating rail, but that doesn't mean they're the only agency that ever possibly could do so.
With Cobb, I feel the need for MARTA in the inner parts of the county is vital and urgent, but I'd be willing to compromise about the rest of the county, as long whatever transit solution we end up with is decent.
Maybe you'd be unhappy with this, but I'd be totally fine with:
-GRTA or CobbLINC branded commuter rail, between Acworth and Downtown Atlanta (with the MMPT likely being the only station not in Cobb.)
-MARTA in Cumberland CID area and Six Flags CID area on a permanent, locally funded member basis. Which could go towards LRT, BRT, or in the case of Six Flags maybe a single HRT station on the Blue Line. And of course MARTA bus route service within those special areas. And those areas would have MARTA stations where non-MARTA bus services in the rest of the county could terminate their routes.
-Generally more flexibility when it comes to MARTA. More inter-operations in Cobb. Like for example maybe a MARTA route on Spring Rd, specially funded by Smyrna. Or something like that. Just general flexibility.
-Total coordination between Cobb and Gwinnett transit systems, and MARTA (and GRTA). I mean, almost to the point where they're virtually all one and the same thing. Total integration in as many ways as possible.
-Similar to Cobb, some limited MARTA operations in Gwinnett (with maybe parts of Gwinnett joining permanently.) Like, maybe a one-station extension of the Gold Line, to Amwiler Rd. Or whatever. But with Gwinnett's primary commuter transit focus (funded provided by their own agency and/or GRTA), would be express services that bypass all that, getting commuters from placing like Sugarloaf Mills, directly to Lindbergh or directly to Downtown, etc.
I see a lot of positive possibilities, in terms of how could things be better than they are currently. So for now I'm choosing to think a lot about that. For one because it's a little less disappointing and depressing.
Only partially. It's not 'any other percent', but it certainly is allowed to enter at only 0.5% sales tax.
Emphasis mine. At the time, subsection (k) only included DeKalb, Fulton, and the City of Atlanta. That has since changed to include Clayton.
Well, it's a good thing I looked at the laws, then. Oh, and that wasn't an idea that was floated. The Clayton County Board of Commissioners' initial proposal to MARTA was for the county to join at 0.5%.
I'll get to it eventually.
I'm lambasting the leadership for ignoring a very real position of their citizens, yes.
I haven't. I've explicitly said 50%, as we last saw 2 years ago before a major transportation network failure and the approved expansion of MARTA within the CoA.
I would love to see more recent numbers, no matter which direction they've gone, but don't underplay them.
Only if you ignore the part where I said the leadership should be doing both since half of their citizens want the thing they aren't doing.
I'm complaining that they're overly prioritizing one thing when they have no legitimate reason to.
I'm not trolling it. We have the data and can see what they're doing. They are actively ignoring at least 50% of likely voters' wishes to join MARTA.
Ok... fair enough.
There are three options, one of which I apparently overlooked.
However, it still does not make you correct and my original statements incorrect. Gwinnett can not just enter negotiations and we have to pick one of 2 sizes to fit all.
I don't see any scenario where it makes financial sense for Gwinnett.
In on people won't allow high capacity service. Gwinnett has already shown it can operate bus routes beyond what MARTA does that far out of town in their own service areas at far less than 0.5% on the sales tax.
At 1% all the same problems I presented before exist.
We'd be putting alot of money into have 5 or 6 stops for a line to primarily to help those going to Midtown, Downtown and the airport from only a portion of the county and most Gwinnettians are increasingly commuting to other places. It is just a bad deal to do transit this way.
Primal is at least open to ideas and not merely sticking with the current status-quo.
Be careful with your replies. You're contradicting yourself a whole lot in your rhetoric when others are trying to join the discussion.
earlier you said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by fourthwarden
The disparity between what polling data we have an the leadership's views shows that to be absolutely incorrect.
(This does not imply 50/50. It implies the leadership is going against an overwhelming majority)
I call you out on it. You over argue against it.
And now you're saying you actively said 50% and they're just ignoring 50% (when if they follow your complaint... they'd be ignoring the other 50%). You're original argumentation is very misleading. Turn down the rheortic and stop getting stuck in all these side arguments instead of discussing the real relevant details.
This isn't that complicated. Intown areas get a property tax windfall from having things like the big skyscrapers, but they have less retail sales too. The larger suburban outlying counties have stronger retail sales, but lower property values.
We have more expenses in most in things like education and we never had the freeway benefit intown areas and Dekalb had and we must put more money into arterial roads ourselves.
That state needs to restructure somewhow, if you really truly want big things to happen (and btw .... if you'll open up to it... bigger things can happen than just Gwinnett joining MARTA)
We'd be putting alot of money into have 5 or 6 stops for a line to primarily to help those going to Midtown, Downtown and the airport from only a portion of the county and most Gwinnettians are increasingly commuting to other places. It is just a bad deal to do transit this way.
Primal is at least open to ideas and not merely sticking with the current status-quo.
One of the things Fourthwarden and I disagree on, is the necessity of extending MARTA heavy rail into Cobb and Gwinnett.
I only consider the Blue Line extension just over the river into South Cobb (Six Flags) to be vital. And then I would ideally like to see one more station on the Gold Line inside the edge of Gwinnett, to better serve Norcross and Peachtree Corners.
Heavy rail up I-75 and I-85 would be great, I definitely wouldn't mind them, but I don't think they are absolutely necessary. Particularly because HRT has so many stops, I don't think it's usually the best for long stretches OTP. Also, it's just damn expensive to build all that, and would take forever. With a lot of disruption and displacement along the way.
So that's why I'm open to alternatives.
And as someone who used to live in Gwinnett up until 2012 (I owned a house in the NW Lawrenceville area off Riverside Pkwy), I always worked in suburban office/corporate campuses in Gwinnett and North Fulton, so the heavy rail wouldn't have really helped.
Most of Cobb and Gwinnett need more of an express commuter rail type service, or express commuter bus type service, done in a quality way. They need to bypass a lot of stops, direct right into Downtown Atlanta, or maybe a hub MARTA station like Lindbergh (or an Armour infill hub).
There are a lot of different possibilities. If Cobb and Gwinnett never join MARTA in full, that doesn't mean they'll never have good mass transit. Let's be open to different possibilities, that's all. Let's see how this all might play out, and look at how transit can score some actual victories, that don't depend on those counties completely changing their tune about not being terrible excited about joining MARTA.
If Cumberland joined MARTA, we could have a rapid, high frequency, direct shuttle bus link service between Arts Center station in Midtown, and a nice new MARTA bus station at the Galleria, with thousands of park n ride spaces, and TOD along with it also.
Like cqholt and I envisioned and discussed. A frequent bus link, using all HOV lane, via a new 15th St bridge with HOV ramps (which GDOT is planning to build.) And then just include it on the MARTA map.
Surely the Cumberland CID could join MARTA and easily be able to afford that, and it could be done really really well. With really great service and very high frequency. An excellent transit link.
And in the meantime, GRTA or CCT would have a commuter rail service throughout Cobb, connected to Downtown Atlanta, with a stop in Cumberland.
I'd be totally satisfied with that. As long as it's done right.
I'm not sure on specifics. There is alot of numbers that need to be picked over that won't be presented in this forum. And I'm still playing around with things in my own mind, tbh.
I definitely want more state leadership somehow, because something needs to fundamentally change to really do things big.
What I really want to see happen is two-fold:
-We need some type of tiered taxing and tiered service level program for the entire region. Some level of service that is mandatory for all and some that isn't
- The parts that aren't can be a tiered pay-in and possibly allow different types of taxation (ie. property tax, etc..)
I'm a big proponent of commuter rail, but I think the whole region need to participate, whether the state government just does it or we have a self-taxing district of 20 counties (but much less than the whole 1% MARTA tax).
The core problem is when it is built we will be making expensive changes in core congestion areas that will allow trains to travel a far distance on existing tracks. Some areas will need additional tracking and some will not. Some areas will merely need double tracking enough to allow commuter trains and local delivery trains to run simultaneously, but the local delivery trains only need to access major industrial districts where as the commuter train can go 50 miles out on one track.
Now there are problems here too... RR tracks do not travel everywhere. Some are busier than others. But I'd like to see something along these lines... But we will never Forsyth, Fayette, or Cherokee wanting to buy into this for 1% and they won't want what MARTA is now to be present in their counties that far out.
Then other things can happen and counties (or areas) can pay for anything from buses, shuttles, and rail as they see fit. We can have various levels of taxation too.
The second problem I have is this system of using a sales tax for transit has been a huge windfall for office-based companies at the cost of retail based companies and their consumers.
There is retail connected by transit, but across the region retail is more dispersed and offices are more concentrated in the core, at least by comparison.
This is partly why this Gwinnett-CoA conundrum exists. Gwinnett has more retail and less office space (so more sales tax collection and less property tax). Yet the expansion of very expensive transit is a boon for core office districts and they pay less of the bill ultimately. They are more heavily taxed by property taxes and not retail sales.
Yet at the same time their expenditure needs are different across the region too. Gwinnett's school system is far-far large and growing at a faster rate with less money per capita compared to the city of Atlanta.
To some degree I think we need to have property tax collections in core districts around transit stations (intown and suburbs.. as anything else is built), even if that is in conjunction with some type of sales tax.
These problems really come down to is we need a state legislature to take these things more seriously. They keep holding the bait out there that they want to look into things... and then don't.
At the same time current MARTA area's are concerned about loss of control of their investment, but that is ultimately not allowing for ideas to create a more inclusive or fair system on a grander scale.
It all boils down to a my way or the highway philosophy (pun intended) and many (on both sides) are self-defensive at protected the status-quo.
More importantly Gwinnett (and to a slightly lessor degree) are on a potential tipping point on this issue. Doing something to get many more people on board up front, can yield long-term perception improvements.
Gwinnett is a bit different from Cobb. We have a decent amount of office space too, but it isn't just pooled together in Peacthree Corners. It is scattered up and down I-85 and Peacthree Corners isn't ideally positioned for everything to be one corridor. Cobb has more of an advantage being centered around Cumberland, even if Cumberland is a very large scattered area itself.
A very frequent bus with its own dedicated lanes or the ability to use the shoulder lanes can be much better than a infrequent train and the bus may get you closer to your office front door than the train is some cases.
At the rate metro ATL is going with the bickering over transit expansion and cost, its better to just have the shoulder lanes open for the buses to use during rush hours and traffic jams and have a extremely efficient GRTA bus system that connect metro Atlanta than wait 10-20 yrs for rail to be built.
Sitting on a express bus that can get you from suburbs to city in 30-40 mins beats sitting in the car traffic for 1-1,5hrs when its bad.
A very frequent bus with its own dedicated lanes or the ability to use the shoulder lanes can be much better than a infrequent train and the bus may get you closer to your office front door than the train is some cases.
At the rate metro ATL is going with the bickering over transit expansion and cost, its better to just have the shoulder lanes open for the buses to use during rush hours and traffic jams and have a extremely efficient GRTA bus system that connect metro Atlanta than wait 10-20 yrs for rail to be built.
Sitting on a express bus that can get you from suburbs to city in 30-40 mins beats sitting in the car traffic for 1-1,5hrs when its bad.
That's great until some stopped vehicle on the shoulder blocks the buses during rush hour.
That's great until some stopped vehicle on the shoulder blocks the buses during rush hour.
Might only take a min or 2 longer to go around that car. We could always just turn HOV lanes into rail...im sure that will go real well with suburbia and state legislators
Might only take a min or 2 longer to go around that car. We could always just turn HOV lanes into rail...im sure that will go real well with suburbia and state legislators
Good luck sticking to bus schedules every time the bus has to go back into the gridlocked General-purpose lanes. Also the engineering required to change over HOV lanes to rail would be insane and dropped on cost considerations alone.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
