Will Gwinnett County join MARTA? Not likely, officials say (Atlanta: cost, mall)

[fourthwarden]

Originally Posted by cqholt

If it's not in dedicated lanes/guideways, don't bother!

Yeah, the sheer number of buses required to meet heavy rail's capacity is pretty harsh. If they used GRTA buses, then they'd need a bus every 30 seconds. If they used MARTA's 60-foot articulated buses they'd need one every minute and a half.

I'm pretty sure mixed-traffic operations don't really allow that kind of headway. Not to mention the operations costs involved.

Besides, the top end I-285 arch sees more vehicles than GA-400, and I doubt you'll find a majority who think that having the Red Line in place is a bad thing.

[bu2]

Originally Posted by fourthwarden

Yeah, the sheer number of buses required to meet heavy rail's capacity is pretty harsh. If they used GRTA buses, then they'd need a bus every 30 seconds. If they used MARTA's 60-foot articulated buses they'd need one every minute and a half.

I'm pretty sure mixed-traffic operations don't really allow that kind of headway. Not to mention the operations costs involved.

Besides, the top end I-285 arch sees more vehicles than GA-400, and I doubt you'll find a majority who think that having the Red Line in place is a bad thing.

If you don't have the ridership, the capacity of heavy rail is irrelevant. In fact, its a detriment.

I don't have a strong feeling on what would work best along 285N, but buses with dedicated ROW provide cheaper, more flexible AND better service than rail or BRT for most of the metro. That's how Houston ranks 17-with HOV/HOT lanes in every direction and about a dozen express and 3 dozen park-n-ride routes.

When you have 10 stops on the way in, it takes longer than an express route. If you don't have the very heavy ridership, you shouldn't degrade service to the suburbs by putting in vastly more expensive rail instead of bus. And a park-n-ride could make one stop at a MARTA station to allow transfers for people who aren't going all the way to the CBD.

[primaltech]

I don't think the top end of 285 justifies rail. I'm not for it. At least not until there's rail from all directions of ITP and OTP suburbs (including my NW direction) running down into the core, and we run out of more crucial rail projects.

I am for a really good express-BRT type service. Something that could depart from a Cumberland transit station, bypass the traffic, and take you directly to Dunwoody station, via special bus ramps onto Perimeter Center Pkwy. And with a similar deal from Doraville to Dunwoody station.

And maybe a few intermediate BRT stops along the way, if the stops are designed to be quick and efficient, and built into the lane system/median, without requiring the bus to exit the ROW or turn at all.

But rail along 285 is super low priority when we're missing rail lines from the core to 2 out of the 3 edge city areas (Cumberland and Northlake), and 2 out of the 3 most populous metro counties at all. The first priority should be to connect rail lines to Atlanta, not Perimeter Center. That's a much later project.

[primaltech]

With one exception to that: I would be in favor of a Light Rail for Gwinnett, from the Sugarloaf area to Perimeter Center, via a direct connection on a new station on the Gold Line (a 1-stop extension of that line). I think that would be a great solution.

But for Cobb, we're a lot closer in to the core business centers of the city, and having a rail line up to Perimeter Center is almost heading away from everything. It's awkward. Especially at least while it would be our only rail line.

[cqholt]

Originally Posted by primaltech

I don't think the top end of 285 justifies rail. I'm not for it. At least not until there's rail from all directions of ITP and OTP suburbs (including my NW direction) running down into the core, and we run out of more crucial rail projects.

I am for a really good express-BRT type service. Something that could depart from a Cumberland transit station, bypass the traffic, and take you directly to Dunwoody station, via special bus ramps onto Perimeter Center Pkwy. And with a similar deal from Doraville to Dunwoody station.

And maybe a few intermediate BRT stops along the way, if the stops are designed to be quick and efficient, and built into the lane system/median, without requiring the bus to exit the ROW or turn at all.

But rail along 285 is super low priority when we're missing rail lines from the core to 2 out of the 3 edge city areas (Cumberland and Northlake), and 2 out of the 3 most populous metro counties at all. The first priority should be to connect rail lines to Atlanta, not Perimeter Center. That's a much later project.

Why doesn't GRTA just run Xpress buses like this now? Between Doraville and Cumberland, via 285 with a stop at Medical Center (because it has less congestion than Ashford-Dunwoody Rd) using their current fleet of buses.

[fourthwarden]

Originally Posted by bu2

If you don't have the ridership, the capacity of heavy rail is irrelevant. In fact, its a detriment.

Hence my statement about the I-285 top-end having more cars than GA 400. The top end arch is busier than the GA 400 corridor, which already has well-used heavy rail within it.

A route from Cumberland through Perimeter Center, to Doraville and back would absolutely have the ridership to justify it.

I don't have a strong feeling on what would work best along 285N, but buses with dedicated ROW provide cheaper, more flexible AND better service than rail or BRT for most of the metro.

Buses in dedicate ROW is BRT.

That's how Houston ranks 17-with HOV/HOT lanes in every direction and about a dozen express and 3 dozen park-n-ride routes.

But that is not BRT, and those aren't dedicated rights of way.

I'm not saying that HOT-lane buses aren't a good thing, but they are not at all a substitute for heavy rail in a corridor as heavily traveled as the top end arch.

When you have 10 stops on the way in, it takes longer than an express route.

Let's see. It's 12.5 miles from Cumberland to Doraville across the top end. That's 13min worth of driving with light traffic, but not including any of the exit / entrance ramps.

It's about 12.5 Miles from North Springs to Arts Center. That's 19 min of travel time, not including any of the walk-up / boarding.

It would be quite surprising to me if a top end rail line had more than the 7 stations involved with that trip.

If you don't have the very heavy ridership, you shouldn't degrade service to the suburbs by putting in vastly more expensive rail instead of bus.

What makes you think the route wouldn't be well used? I-285 has more vehicles using it than GA 400, where the Red Line generates plenty of ridership, or are you going to tell me the Red Line should have been HOV-lane express buses?

A top end route would connect two of the metro's high-activity CBDs to one another, as well as provide park-n-ride support for both.

I actually think that you are more degrading service to the CBDs by trying to go the cheap route rather than supplying the level of service they need.

And a park-n-ride could make one stop at a MARTA station to allow transfers for people who aren't going all the way to the CBD.

And the park-n-rides could be the MARTA stations to allow transfers for people going anywhere else in the system.

[primaltech]

Here's a cost-effective, high bang-for-buck, regionally-minded mass transit solution for Gwinnett, that doesn't even necessarily need to be branded MARTA:

1. Extend Gold Line MARTA heavy rail by 1 station, slightly into Gwinnett County, near Amwiler Rd. Norcross/Peachtree Corners Station would be a good name. If Gwinnett doesn't join MARTA, a contract could be worked out that allows this.

2. Design that station from the get-go, with LRT platforms included. And with TOD integrated from inception.

3. Build this LRT plan, between there and Sugarloaf: http://www.gwinnettvillage.com/wp-co...nal_052109.pdf -EXCEPT it doesn't terminate there at the new Gold station, it connects there, on its way to the Dunwoody MARTA station where it terminates.

This solution would be way cheaper than heavy rail and could be built faster, it wouldn't necessarily require joining MARTA, it connects Gwinnett residents directly with jobs in Perimeter Center, it connects Gwinnett with both the Red and Gold lines, allowing access to everywhere MARTA goes, and it also provides at least half of the top end 285 transit solution. Could be done in collaboration with the City of Dunwoody, to better connect their residents to their MARTA.

[fourthwarden]

Originally Posted by primaltech

Here's a cost-effective, high bang-for-buck, regionally-minded mass transit solution for Gwinnett, that doesn't even necessarily need to be branded MARTA:

1. Extend Gold Line MARTA heavy rail by 1 station, slightly into Gwinnett County, near Amwiler Rd. Norcross/Peachtree Corners Station would be a good name. If Gwinnett doesn't join MARTA, a contract could be worked out that allows this.

2. Design that station from the get-go, with LRT platforms included. And with TOD integrated from inception.

3. Build this LRT plan, between there and Sugarloaf: http://www.gwinnettvillage.com/wp-co...nal_052109.pdf -EXCEPT it doesn't terminate there at the new Gold station, it connects there, on its way to the Dunwoody MARTA station where it terminates.

This solution would be way cheaper than heavy rail and could be built faster, it wouldn't necessarily require joining MARTA, it connects Gwinnett residents directly with jobs in Perimeter Center, it connects Gwinnett with both the Red and Gold lines, allowing access to everywhere MARTA goes, and it also provides at least half of the top end 285 transit solution. Could be done in collaboration with the City of Dunwoody, to better connect their residents to their MARTA.

So, force a transfer to a lower-quality mode that doesn't have the capacity to properly handle either the expected Gwinnett county growth nor the current traffic on I-285?

All so we don't have to fight for the right thing to just have Gwinnett join MARTA, and to save money that shouldn't be saved?

[primaltech]

Light rail is fine. I've seen it done really well (in Seattle). It would be a good solution for Gwinnett. It can be MARTA, but doesn't necessarily have to be, that's all I'm saying. The most important part is the funds.

I've never been a fan of any LRT line that just connects with the end of a HRT line, forcing a mode transfer just to keep going. But I would be a fan of a Dunwoody to Gwinnett Arena LRT line, with a connection with Gold HRT along the way. Where yes there would be a mode transfer for most people (unless you work at Dunwoody or are going to Perimeter Mall), but with different lines/options to transfer to, and can go either direction on the Red line, which is planned to go out to Alpharetta.

[cqholt]

Originally Posted by primaltech

Light rail is fine. I've seen it done really well (in Seattle). It would be a good solution for Gwinnett. It can be MARTA, but doesn't necessarily have to be, that's all I'm saying. The most important part is the funds.

I've never been a fan of any LRT line that just connects with the end of a HRT line, forcing a mode transfer just to keep going. But I would be a fan of a Dunwoody to Gwinnett Arena LRT line, with a connection with Gold HRT along the way. Where yes there would be a mode transfer for most people (unless you work at Dunwoody or are going to Perimeter Mall), but with different lines/options to transfer to, and can go either direction on the Red line, which is planned to go out to Alpharetta.

It's almost like that idea has been proposed before.