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Interesting many posters on here do not understand the topic. The topic has nothing to do with whether people should or should not be able to identify and avoid falling prey to dealer sales antics. It is not a question of "well it is their own fault for being stupid." This thread is about what dealers add if anything to the process of buying a car.
The concept that people are stupid if they end up paying too much or buying a bunch of thins they do not need/want, does not indicate dealers contribute anything, it is merely saying they take money form less sophisticated people (usually meaning, young, elderly, or first time buyers). to me that is not saying they add anything to the process, it is saying they hurt the innocent. That is hardly an argument for keeping dealers.
I have yet to see one person say they walked into a dealer and drove out in the exact car they wanted. As mentioned, dealers stock loaded vehicles with options that make the most profit for them, not necessarily what you want. You have a choice, drive out in a car with a different set op options than what you wanted, or have the dealer order one/dealer trade for it (which takes a few days. (Which is no different than ordering the car you want on the internet).
Dealers do a few things, they clean the car for you before you pick it up. However even setting aside the upselling/over charging to make extra money, I simply do not see anything dealerships add to justify the customer paying for buildings/rent, insurance, advertising, overhead, commissions, salaries of salespersons, receptionists, cleaners, janitors, etc. I can pay someone to clean my car every week for years with the cost of paying for all of that.
That fact is costs must be reduced, and the outdated and no longer necessary retail network is one obvious place to do that. They are not needed, just another layer of overhead. I realize there are some people who are worried about protecting their jobs, but like every businesses that becomes out dated and disappears, you will find other work. If you are good at sales, there are endless opportunities, and if you are a mechanic, there will always be broken cars to fix.
It is really a matter of time. Discussions here are not going to change the fact that dealerships are no longer sufficiently useful to justify the massive expense and will disappear. In fact, my guess would be the argument on this thread will likely last longer than the dealership model does.
I wonder whether car mechanics will eventually end up going the way of the electronics/appliance repair shops. Will we reach the point where cars do not really break much until it is no longer with repairing them? Will mechanics shops eventually become the occasional oddity in small towns? People will say that is impossible, it will never happen, but people would have said the same thing about appliance/electronic repair shops. It is just too big of an investment for people to start tossing them out when they break. When is the last time you had a TV repaired?
Sure there are still shops around, but they are not ubiquitous they way the once were. Appliance or electron repairs is rarely if ever a vocational education subject anymore. Although cars now cost as much as a house, they have lower failure rates. Many cars now make it to 200,000 miles without needing anything major. As technology advances, that is likely to improve. Maintenance intervals are getting further and further apart. As we move toward electric motors, cars have fewer maintenance and repair needs.
What do you think, will mechanics shops become something of a rarity like appliance/electronics repair shops in 20 years?
I am one who has purchased a car recently (for my wife) off a dealer's lot and it was the exact car we wanted. Not the first time I've done that, either. Based on your comments I take it you have never worked at a dealer or in the auto industry at all, because if you did then you'd understand a vast majority of sales are taken off dealers lots and are not "ordered." There is a reason every dealer has an ocean of new cars sitting on their lots. The ones who stock 'em are more successful than ones who don't. (Also understand floorplan interest costs are a HUGE expense, so these guys are still stocking all those cars even with that. Gee....I wonder why.....)
In my case my local dealer did not have the exact model/specs I wanted so I found it another one within a few hours of our house. The insinuation that dealers just stock cars that nobody wants couldn't be further from the truth. They stock what sells for them and they have a huge vested interest in doing so given the inventory floorplan costs incurred on units that just sit there.
So answer me this, if you eliminated the dealer network for Ford Motor Company:
- How would you handle selling cars - will there be physical locations anywhere to test drive cars, look at a large inventory or products, take a car home that day, etc?
- How would you set up your footprint to handle local parts and service needs? Can't have everyone drive to Dearborn for service, right?
- How would you handle taking in used trades and how would you dispose of those?
Those are all the things that dealers currently do and there is cost associating with doing that. If Tesla wants to handle doing that themselves then go for it, nothing wrong with that in my opinion and they should be allowed to do so. If they do start setting up locations across the country for sales, parts & service there will be costs associated with all that - which will end up being part of the car just like it is now with dealers.
The blanket statement of "eliminating dealers will rid us of unnecessary cost" has not been proven to be true when tried before. It could actually add cost if the manufacturer is less efficient at doing those basic sales/service things relative to their current dealer network, not to mention they will want greater returns on new car sales than what dealers currently get. Shareholders will demand more than a few hundred dollar return on a $30,000 new car.
Can the current dealer network be more efficient, sure....but the large bulk of the costs of cars we pay for are not from dealers. The manufacturers have to work to get costs down and the government needs to stop trying to make every car and truck on the road a sherman tank.
. . . you'd understand a vast majority of sales are taken off dealers lots and are not "ordered."
So answer me this, if you eliminated the dealer network for Ford Motor Company:
- How would you handle selling cars - will there be physical locations anywhere to test drive cars, look at a large inventory or products, take a car home that day, etc?
- How would you set up your footprint to handle local parts and service needs? Can't have everyone drive to Dearborn for service, right?
- How would you handle taking in used trades and how would you dispose of those?
I understand that perfectly well; however that does not mean people are getting cars exactly configured the way they want them. In my experience, more often then not, dealers talk the buyer into buying something configured slightly differently than what they actually want. They are very good at that, especially upgrades. People who stick to their guns and insist on exactly what they want usually end up ordering one and waiting a few days. Dealers stock maybe 15 - 20 of any given model, usually several of them are options and color exactly the same, so they are really only stocking a few completely different vehicles. . With hundreds of different possible combinations of color, options, upgraded submodels, etc, - no they are not goign to hit exacly what someone wants very often.
Initially there will likely be test drive centers, like Tesla does. However realistically test drives are silly. If you are buying a performance car, you are not gong to able to really test it and non performance cars, you are not going to discern anything meaningful in a 10 minute drive anyway. You are better off relying on professionals who can test drive different models back to back and compare them. Test drives in a few rare instances can disclose some issues like "I hate CVT's" but then so can reading up on the car. Beside some things like CVTs or double clutch may not go over well on a test drive but may be perfectly acceptable after some adjustment. My outlook on test drives is they are unnecessary but fun. However until people get used to buying cars without test drives, they will likely have test drive centers for a while.
There is a new thing available in all types of businesses called "just in time delivery." It is made possible through the use of computers and better management practices. Car delivery can be simlar. I want to buy a car on Wednesday. On Friday I chose the options I want and arrange payment online, on Wednesday, they deliver it to the pick up location. Done, No three hours of games at the dealership while they try to figure out how much extra they can milk out of you by making you wait around all day and play psychological games.
Parts and service are handled just fine outside of dealerships - only without the 40% mark up. What you cannot find locally, you can order, just like the dealership does.
Funny thing, I had a very model specific problem with my truck that i figured woudl be best resolved by the pricey dealer serivce. They told me I need a part they do not have and cannot get except by ordering it form another dealer. If they order it from another dealer, it costs $100 more and takes 6-8 weeks to get it. If I order it from another dealer it costs 100 less (I actually found it for $125 less) and takes three days. The dealer charged me $100 to diagnose the issue and tell me they could not get the part. That $110 woudl apply toward putting the part in once I got it. However even after applying the $110, it was $50 cheaper to have a local indy mechanic install it for me than to pay the dealer to do it.
In general I hate using the dealer for service. They have no competition for dealer only work and they know it. You make an appointment, arrive ten minutes early and it still takes them an hour to process your vehicle and get you out the door. Then they take longer to get it done and usually forget something you asked them to do. They ignore things that you tell them, if they write it down, no one reads it. They guy you talk to, gives the order to someone, who gives it to someone who gives it to someone else. They guy you talk to is usually gone by the time they go to work on your car, and even is (s)he is still there they certainly do not go check up to make sure your directions are followed. They have too many layers of people and overly complicate processes. At an indy shop, I either talk to the guy who will do the work, or his direct boss.
Trades? You mean giving someone $200 "off" a new car purchase and then charging them the same amount they could have negotiated anyway, and then re-selling the car for $1500? No I do not see that dealers are adding any value there. If people want to "trade" in their old car, debars can handle it, pretty much the same way dealers do, take the car for next to nothing, and then wholesale it out. There is also this thing called craigslist or autotrader where people can get actual market value for their car.
Sorry, I am not at all convinced that we can continue to justify the massive overhead and layers of profit burden that dealerships add to new car prices. I may not have worked for a dealership but I have seen their financials. their nut is monumental - crazy really, and the profit margins for the owner are quite high (plus you have profts going to commissions for salesmen, sales managers (sometimes multiple layers), finance people, general managers, etc etc. Layer after layer of unnecessary people taking a salary and a commission out of the transaction. It is not sustainable when there are other viable options.
However it does not matter what you or I prefer, the fact is the dealership model is passe and will soon be gone. Not soon enough for me, too soon for you. You may miss the good old days when you could get terrible or no service from dealers for only $5,000 per vehicle more. I won't
I understand that perfectly well; however that does not mean people are getting cars exactly configured the way they want them. In my experience, more often then not, dealers talk the buyer into buying something configured slightly differently than what they actually want. They are very good at that, especially upgrades. People who stick to their guns and insist on exactly what they want usually end up ordering one and waiting a few days. Dealers stock maybe 15 - 20 of any given model, usually several of them are options and color exactly the same, so they are really only stocking a few completely different vehicles. . With hundreds of different possible combinations of color, options, upgraded submodels, etc, - no they are not goign to hit exacly what someone wants very often.
Initially there will likely be test drive centers, like Tesla does. However realistically test drives are silly. If you are buying a performance car, you are not gong to able to really test it and non performance cars, you are not going to discern anything meaningful in a 10 minute drive anyway. You are better off relying on professionals who can test drive different models back to back and compare them. Test drives in a few rare instances can disclose some issues like "I hate CVT's" but then so can reading up on the car. Beside some things like CVTs or double clutch may not go over well on a test drive but may be perfectly acceptable after some adjustment. My outlook on test drives is they are unnecessary but fun. However until people get used to buying cars without test drives, they will likely have test drive centers for a while.
There is a new thing available in all types of businesses called "just in time delivery." It is made possible through the use of computers and better management practices. Car delivery can be simlar. I want to buy a car on Wednesday. On Friday I chose the options I want and arrange payment online, on Wednesday, they deliver it to the pick up location. Done, No three hours of games at the dealership while they try to figure out how much extra they can milk out of you by making you wait around all day and play psychological games.
Parts and service are handled just fine outside of dealerships - only without the 40% mark up. What you cannot find locally, you can order, just like the dealership does.
Funny thing, I had a very model specific problem with my truck that i figured woudl be best resolved by the pricey dealer serivce. They told me I need a part they do not have and cannot get except by ordering it form another dealer. If they order it from another dealer, it costs $100 more and takes 6-8 weeks to get it. If I order it from another dealer it costs 100 less (I actually found it for $125 less) and takes three days. The dealer charged me $100 to diagnose the issue and tell me they could not get the part. That $110 woudl apply toward putting the part in once I got it. However even after applying the $110, it was $50 cheaper to have a local indy mechanic install it for me than to pay the dealer to do it.
In general I hate using the dealer for service. They have no competition for dealer only work and they know it. You make an appointment, arrive ten minutes early and it still takes them an hour to process your vehicle and get you out the door. Then they take longer to get it done and usually forget something you asked them to do. They ignore things that you tell them, if they write it down, no one reads it. They guy you talk to, gives the order to someone, who gives it to someone who gives it to someone else. They guy you talk to is usually gone by the time they go to work on your car, and even is (s)he is still there they certainly do not go check up to make sure your directions are followed. They have too many layers of people and overly complicate processes. At an indy shop, I either talk to the guy who will do the work, or his direct boss.
Trades? You mean giving someone $200 "off" a new car purchase and then charging them the same amount they could have negotiated anyway, and then re-selling the car for $1500? No I do not see that dealers are adding any value there. If people want to "trade" in their old car, debars can handle it, pretty much the same way dealers do, take the car for next to nothing, and then wholesale it out. There is also this thing called craigslist or autotrader where people can get actual market value for their car.
Sorry, I am not at all convinced that we can continue to justify the massive overhead and layers of profit burden that dealerships add to new car prices. I may not have worked for a dealership but I have seen their financials. their nut is monumental - crazy really, and the profit margins for the owner are quite high (plus you have profts going to commissions for salesmen, sales managers (sometimes multiple layers), finance people, general managers, etc etc. Layer after layer of unnecessary people taking a salary and a commission out of the transaction. It is not sustainable when there are other viable options.
However it does not matter what you or I prefer, the fact is the dealership model is passe and will soon be gone. Not soon enough for me, too soon for you. You may miss the good old days when you could get terrible or no service from dealers for only $5,000 per vehicle more. I won't
Each customer has the right to purchase or decline any car on any dealer's lot. If the evil dealer "talks them into it" who's fault is that? Then you say "People who stick to their guns and insist on exactly what they want usually end up ordering one and waiting a few days." In what world do you live in? In mine, you can't order a car and get it in a few days. It takes 30-60 days to get an ordered car, typically, and most people are not willing to wait that long.
You also make it sound so easy for people to go out and sell their own cars. If it was that easy then more people would do it on their own. Nothing like griping about a service that someone can't do or doesn't want to do yourself. For me, it's 50/50....sometimes I trade sometimes I don't. I know if I trade the car I will get less than selling on my own. For me it just depends on the circumstance, what kind of trade price I get on the car, and what kind of time & energy I feel like spending to sell the car myself at that time.
I just don't think you have a real understanding of how the industry actually works but that's my opinion. I have worked in the industry my entire life and I know when to call BS when someone claims about these huge margins dealer's supposedly make on an individual new car sale. Does the overall dealership make good money? It should, but so should every other business, right? But that doesn't change the fact dealers typically have a 2-4% return on sales which is far below most industries. It's all about volume...
I'm not going to debate that there are some bad dealers and that some (or many) dealers can be more efficient with their operations, but the market is going to make that happen naturally, if not slowly. Dealership consolidation is going to continue and the strong players will buy up the weak ones. Like it or not the dealer model is not going away anytime soon because most of the manufacturers like it this way not to mention state dealer franchise laws would take years to overturn, if even possible at all.
I hope Tesla wins their fight to sell direct. I think a little shakeup is a good thing and it will be fun to see how all that plays out.
Part of the problem is as cars get more complicated with more computerized controls and emission-related components on them (especially diesels) your independent shops just can't work on these cars as much anymore. Same goes for hybrids and electrics - you think Joe Mechanic down the street is going to be able to fix a Tesla with battery problems or a GM Diesel pickup with DEF System issues? Nope....
On the diesel side.... yes they absolutely can. I have worked in these shops as a service writer (both an independent shop and a diesel dealership) There are diesel specialists that can work on any model of diesel and repair ANY problem that arises. Often times very easily and much more quickly than the dealer, and at a lesser cost. Don't believe that only a "certified" (insert your brand name here) technician can work on your vehicle. There is a world of knowledge out there now that anyone can address.
Quote:
Originally Posted by iamweasel
The tools and training required to learn how to repair some of these vehicles keeps skyrocketing. In addition, some of these tools are only available to dealers of that particular brand. Manufacturers do not want independent shops messing around inside the complicated electrical/engine/emissions systems so even in states with "Right to Repair" laws the independent guys still can't afford to get these tools, etc. Because of this, the number of independent shops has slowly been decreasing over time on gas vehicles, and has really gone down dramatically on alt-fuel and diesel vehicles. The future may mirror the heavy truck business, where most of the dealers do the heavy repair & electrical work and the independent shops are limited to doing oil changes, brake jobs, etc.
Name one tool that only a dealer can get their hands on and I'll show you someone who has come up with a substitute or aftermarket tool that does the same job. Their training often consists of some web based training classes. It isn't months at a (insert your brand name here) school. Any mechanic worth their salt can learn how to work on any vehicle. I don't know where you get your data on independent shops having to close their doors, but it is far from the truth. The shops who want to keep up with the times are making the effort to keep their skills/tools up to date.
As an example.... remember the Ford/Navistar/International diesel engine nightmares of the 6.0 (VT365) and 6.4 (Maxxforce 7) Powerstroke engines that are known to blow head gaskets at a whopping $5k+ cost to repair at a Ford dealer? Then once fixed, there is the chance that the head gasket can pop again if the dealer didn't perform the repair exactly right? (I do.... I had such a truck that was repaired at a reputable Ford dealer by their master diesel tech that blew head gaskets twice to the tune of over $15k in repairs) There is a company a few hours from me in Georgia (and others) who not only figured out the problem, but developed repair procedures, their own heads, etc... to ensure the problem never reoccurs. AND they offer a LIFETIME unlimited mileage warranty on the repair for the same cost as the dealership. There are absolutely independent companies out there who can not only fix the problems but engineer solutions that make the original design much better.
On the diesel side.... yes they absolutely can. I have worked in these shops as a service writer (both an independent shop and a diesel dealership) There are diesel specialists that can work on any model of diesel and repair ANY problem that arises. Often times very easily and much more quickly than the dealer, and at a lesser cost. Don't believe that only a "certified" (insert your brand name here) technician can work on your vehicle. There is a world of knowledge out there now that anyone can address.
Name one tool that only a dealer can get their hands on and I'll show you someone who has come up with a substitute or aftermarket tool that does the same job. Their training often consists of some web based training classes. It isn't months at a (insert your brand name here) school. Any mechanic worth their salt can learn how to work on any vehicle. I don't know where you get your data on independent shops having to close their doors, but it is far from the truth. The shops who want to keep up with the times are making the effort to keep their skills/tools up to date.
As an example.... remember the Ford/Navistar/International diesel engine nightmares of the 6.0 (VT365) and 6.4 (Maxxforce 7) Powerstroke engines that are known to blow head gaskets at a whopping $5k+ cost to repair at a Ford dealer? Then once fixed, there is the chance that the head gasket can pop again if the dealer didn't perform the repair exactly right? (I do.... I had such a truck that was repaired at a reputable Ford dealer by their master diesel tech that blew head gaskets twice to the tune of over $15k in repairs) There is a company a few hours from me in Georgia (and others) who not only figured out the problem, but developed repair procedures, their own heads, etc... to ensure the problem never reoccurs. AND they offer a LIFETIME unlimited mileage warranty on the repair for the same cost as the dealership. There are absolutely independent companies out there who can not only fix the problems but engineer solutions that make the original design much better.
If the factory "can't" fix a car promptly - we have "lemon" laws forcing a manufacturer to buy the car back. You willing to give those up for aftermarket service? Effectively, they are the /only/ teeth behind a manufacturer warranty. And it wouldn't be /fair/ to hold a manufacturer responsible for delays or unsuccessful repairs done by untrained (aftermarket) techs. Offloading repairs to the aftermarket might sound good, but it's not the manufacturer's responsibility to train every tech that has access to a phone on how to repair every new design they come up with. As it is, it's a never-ending battle to get factory techs to *read* the /farking/ service manual and follow the steps to diagnose a repair, in order and in full.
Further, there are a *lot* of niche vehicles and options out there - things like four-wheel steering, options that *seem* like a good idea that don't sell or work in the real world. (Rattle off a list of /current/ car features and you can also find examples that failed ten or twenty (or thirty) years ago.). Buyers of those options will be left in the cold in your world - the aftermarket won't support them due to no profit incentive. The factory won't support them because they don't have to.
I worked at GM when tpms sensors were new. GM put proprietary / patented tpms sensors in a vehicle that had a name ending in vette. The company that made the sensors went out of business. The body wiring / computers in the car were completely different (and incompatible) in later models of the vehicle that used another brand of sensors. The parts warehouse *lost* their lifetime supply of one of the sensors. If that particular sensor went bad in your car, it could /not/ be replaced - GM didn't have any legal right to copy the sensor, the newer parts would not fit, and the aftermarket didn't have a solution. Some of those cars were still under factory warranty - GM /had/ to either engineer a solution or buy back the cars (I don't even remember what choice was made, but I know the solution was expensive & no way it would be cost-effective for the aftermarket to come up with a solution, because they didn't make that many cars that way).
I understand that perfectly well; however that does not mean people are getting cars exactly configured the way they want them. In my experience, more often then not, dealers talk the buyer into buying something configured slightly differently than what they actually want. They are very good at that, especially upgrades. People who stick to their guns and insist on exactly what they want usually end up ordering one and waiting a few days. Dealers stock maybe 15 - 20 of any given model, usually several of them are options and color exactly the same, so they are really only stocking a few completely different vehicles. . With hundreds of different possible combinations of color, options, upgraded submodels, etc, - no they are not goign to hit exacly what someone wants very often.
Initially there will likely be test drive centers, like Tesla does. However realistically test drives are silly. If you are buying a performance car, you are not gong to able to really test it and non performance cars, you are not going to discern anything meaningful in a 10 minute drive anyway. You are better off relying on professionals who can test drive different models back to back and compare them. Test drives in a few rare instances can disclose some issues like "I hate CVT's" but then so can reading up on the car. Beside some things like CVTs or double clutch may not go over well on a test drive but may be perfectly acceptable after some adjustment. My outlook on test drives is they are unnecessary but fun. However until people get used to buying cars without test drives, they will likely have test drive centers for a while.
There is a new thing available in all types of businesses called "just in time delivery." It is made possible through the use of computers and better management practices. Car delivery can be simlar. I want to buy a car on Wednesday. On Friday I chose the options I want and arrange payment online, on Wednesday, they deliver it to the pick up location. Done, No three hours of games at the dealership while they try to figure out how much extra they can milk out of you by making you wait around all day and play psychological games.
Parts and service are handled just fine outside of dealerships - only without the 40% mark up. What you cannot find locally, you can order, just like the dealership does.
Funny thing, I had a very model specific problem with my truck that i figured woudl be best resolved by the pricey dealer serivce. They told me I need a part they do not have and cannot get except by ordering it form another dealer. If they order it from another dealer, it costs $100 more and takes 6-8 weeks to get it. If I order it from another dealer it costs 100 less (I actually found it for $125 less) and takes three days. The dealer charged me $100 to diagnose the issue and tell me they could not get the part. That $110 woudl apply toward putting the part in once I got it. However even after applying the $110, it was $50 cheaper to have a local indy mechanic install it for me than to pay the dealer to do it.
In general I hate using the dealer for service. They have no competition for dealer only work and they know it. You make an appointment, arrive ten minutes early and it still takes them an hour to process your vehicle and get you out the door. Then they take longer to get it done and usually forget something you asked them to do. They ignore things that you tell them, if they write it down, no one reads it. They guy you talk to, gives the order to someone, who gives it to someone who gives it to someone else. They guy you talk to is usually gone by the time they go to work on your car, and even is (s)he is still there they certainly do not go check up to make sure your directions are followed. They have too many layers of people and overly complicate processes. At an indy shop, I either talk to the guy who will do the work, or his direct boss.
Trades? You mean giving someone $200 "off" a new car purchase and then charging them the same amount they could have negotiated anyway, and then re-selling the car for $1500? No I do not see that dealers are adding any value there. If people want to "trade" in their old car, debars can handle it, pretty much the same way dealers do, take the car for next to nothing, and then wholesale it out. There is also this thing called craigslist or autotrader where people can get actual market value for their car.
Sorry, I am not at all convinced that we can continue to justify the massive overhead and layers of profit burden that dealerships add to new car prices. I may not have worked for a dealership but I have seen their financials. their nut is monumental - crazy really, and the profit margins for the owner are quite high (plus you have profts going to commissions for salesmen, sales managers (sometimes multiple layers), finance people, general managers, etc etc. Layer after layer of unnecessary people taking a salary and a commission out of the transaction. It is not sustainable when there are other viable options.
However it does not matter what you or I prefer, the fact is the dealership model is passe and will soon be gone. Not soon enough for me, too soon for you. You may miss the good old days when you could get terrible or no service from dealers for only $5,000 per vehicle more. I won't
I'm not going to argue in favor of dealerships - I used to supervise warranty service for a manufacturer & frequently had to go to court in /multiple/ states to defend the manufacturer- not because we did anything wrong, but because the dealer's techs wouldn't read the factory service manual, skipped steps & "diagnosed" repairs without any objective data, worked on cars for days, but didn't document what they actually *did* on a repair order, etc. they frequently sucked ass & tried to charge my company for substandard, unjustified repairs, and left the manufacturer holding the "buyback" bag with a pissed customer to boot.
That said, coming from a state that required a minimum competency level to call yourself a "mechanic", I was surprised to find that many states have no requirements whatsoever - anyone with $99 worth of tools from Sears can call themselves a "mechanic" & some shop somewhere will be desperate/stupid enough to hire them to work on your $30,000 car.
The aftermarket requires even less skill than dealerships do & the aftermarket doesn't have to buy your car back if they can't (or won't) put the energy forth to properly diagnose a repair. There's no way to /allow/ the aftermarket to take over warranty repairs that doesn't unfairly burden manufacturers. As it is (was), I had several dealerships I desperately wanted to "unplug" from our system - untrained techs, ripoff artists & outright fraudsters that I /couldn't/ pull the franchise from under existing laws. The anarchy that you're seeking doesn't benefit anyone.
Further, I'm gleefully looking forward to Tesla getting their ass handed to them when they finally make a true "mass market" car, purchased by regular folks instead of a select-few brainwashed minions. Remote service just doesn't work with econobox point a-to-b cars. They are going to have to buy /lots/ of those cars back.
I am still not understanding some of the posters; nothing is stating that dealers should be outlawed, it is just that if a manufacturer chooses not to use a dealer, that should be their choice.
If the market decides they like to purchase cars through dealers, I assure you they will still have dealers. If the dealer model works fine for a company,m all the power to them, but they should not be forced upon anyone.
For those here who seem to believe it's a given we have to protect dealers (and discourage direct sales) to preserve superior parts & service, this seems to suggest otherwise, and it's a credible source. I'll admit I would have guessed dealer service depts would have prevailed, as manufacturers seem to help give them advantages over independents.
Our annual survey of Consumer Reports subscribers found that independents outscored dealership service once again for overall satisfaction, price, quality, courteousness of the staff, and work being completed when promised. With few exceptions, the entire list of independent shops got high marks on those factors. The same couldn’t be said for franchised new-car dealers.
The survey, conducted by the Consumer Reports National Research Center, was based on subscriber satisfaction with repairs on more than 121,000 vehicles—80,000 of which were repaired at franchised dealers and more than 41,000 at independent shops.
Tesla is not a manufacturer just like Ford or Toyota. Ford and Toyota make money by manufacturing vehicles which are sold through a traditional dealer channel. Tesla loses money on every car they make and sell themselves. The more they make, the more money they lose. How sustainable do you believe the company is? What happens when their investment stream dries up? Their inability to meet sales targets is actually a benefit as it slows down the hemorrhaging of their capital.
Dealers and their sales monopoly is due to lobbying way back when.
One solution to lobbying--which in other business models is called "bribery" and can get you prosecuted and sent to the pokey--is public financing of elections.
If we think public financing would be prohibitively expensive, we haven't really delved into the costs of allowing wholesale bribery of our "representatives" who end up representing the highest bidder, not you and me and the other pitchfork-wielding peasants.
So step one is somehow convincing our servants to cut off their assured revenue stream at the knees.
Let's say that happened. No "gifts," no "donations," it's possible a different type of animal will be running for office.
And suppose the state laws legalizing dealership monopolies go away.
Some people will buy their cars at Amazon-type outfits. Remember, Amazon is a virtual monopoly run by a person whose radical political views are not supported by everyone.
So you have traded groups of small monopolies for a huge monopoly. Monopoly of monopolies. Make Milton Bradley proud!
Dealers will just morph into service and repair outfits. With probably some sales, people like one-stop shopping.
If SOMEONE in the system had half a brain, dealerships would price parts competitively. But they do not at this point.
Dealerships would get leaner and meaner. Many sales jobs IMO will be replaced by robots or computer consoles. That would not make me overwhelmingly sad. Fershur.
I just spent over six months shopping for a car. I was all set on a KIA Optima, or possibly a Hyundai Sonata, but the sales staff through incomprehensible incompetence and laziness drove me off. I now drive a Mazda6.
Tesla is a tiny outfit regarding sales, vs. the established companies. Henry Ford saw the need for good service way back when, and he did a lot toward establishing the dealership as a repair facility. So the dealership model did not appear from nowhere, and it DOES serve a rational purpose.
If the factory "can't" fix a car promptly - we have "lemon" laws forcing a manufacturer to buy the car back. You willing to give those up for aftermarket service? Effectively, they are the /only/ teeth behind a manufacturer warranty. And it wouldn't be /fair/ to hold a manufacturer responsible for delays or unsuccessful repairs done by untrained (aftermarket) techs. Offloading repairs to the aftermarket might sound good, but it's not the manufacturer's responsibility to train every tech that has access to a phone on how to repair every new design they come up with. As it is, it's a never-ending battle to get factory techs to *read* the /farking/ service manual and follow the steps to diagnose a repair, in order and in full.
No... the lemon law still applies. If a certified shop (again, certified by the manufacturer) cannot fix the vehicle in the required number of attempts/time allotted by state lemon law the manufacturer buys the car back. The only change is the shop working on it, not the process.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zippyman
Further, there are a *lot* of niche vehicles and options out there - things like four-wheel steering, options that *seem* like a good idea that don't sell or work in the real world. (Rattle off a list of /current/ car features and you can also find examples that failed ten or twenty (or thirty) years ago.). Buyers of those options will be left in the cold in your world - the aftermarket won't support them due to no profit incentive. The factory won't support them because they don't have to.
I guess you missed the part about CERTIFIED shops, right? If the tech is certified by the manufacturer to work on a vehicle it does not matter which shop he works for. He can still do the same job, with the same tools. International/Navistar has certified independent repair facilities now that are not dealerships. The warranty is still good there, and anything Navistar comes up with is available to that shop to make the same repairs made at the dealerships. Where's the issue?
Last edited by Nlambert; 04-18-2017 at 12:29 PM..
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