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I hate dealers. Like trying to chase a damn woman.
Come back 6-12 times saying "Well my finance manager says this is a great deal, I'll go and ask him "
You want a used car?
Warranty extra for nails on your tires?
Don't even get me to talk about the service side.
"Oh it's like that from the factory"
Uhh yea is is,because the ****ing factory is in god damn mexico.
As the world turns,so does my back on dealerships from sales to service.
It's stupid, and a bit outdated, but it made sense at the time.
Way back when, I think it was Ford that forced car dealerships to continue buying product, when they weren't selling any.
Car dealerships didn't like that, so they banded together and "unionized"
Car Dealerships are a HUGE source of tax revenue (in states with sales taxes), so they automatically have a leg up on lobbying the government.
Now, as with just about every business, the incumbent will use the clout of the State to "legally" prevent competition from threatening their bottom line.
Let's not forget the "Destination Charge"... as if MSRP wasn't already enough, that's just a sort-of-below the line "**** you, because we can!" fee.
Of course, they dress it up and put a bow on it by saying that they "ensure the vehicles will be supported", and that they are "focused on the needs of the local customers" or some such bull****.
On the diesel side.... yes they absolutely can. I have worked in these shops as a service writer (both an independent shop and a diesel dealership) There are diesel specialists that can work on any model of diesel and repair ANY problem that arises. Often times very easily and much more quickly than the dealer, and at a lesser cost. Don't believe that only a "certified" (insert your brand name here) technician can work on your vehicle. There is a world of knowledge out there now that anyone can address.
Name one tool that only a dealer can get their hands on and I'll show you someone who has come up with a substitute or aftermarket tool that does the same job. Their training often consists of some web based training classes. It isn't months at a (insert your brand name here) school. Any mechanic worth their salt can learn how to work on any vehicle. I don't know where you get your data on independent shops having to close their doors, but it is far from the truth. The shops who want to keep up with the times are making the effort to keep their skills/tools up to date.
As an example.... remember the Ford/Navistar/International diesel engine nightmares of the 6.0 (VT365) and 6.4 (Maxxforce 7) Powerstroke engines that are known to blow head gaskets at a whopping $5k+ cost to repair at a Ford dealer? Then once fixed, there is the chance that the head gasket can pop again if the dealer didn't perform the repair exactly right? (I do.... I had such a truck that was repaired at a reputable Ford dealer by their master diesel tech that blew head gaskets twice to the tune of over $15k in repairs) There is a company a few hours from me in Georgia (and others) who not only figured out the problem, but developed repair procedures, their own heads, etc... to ensure the problem never reoccurs. AND they offer a LIFETIME unlimited mileage warranty on the repair for the same cost as the dealership. There are absolutely independent companies out there who can not only fix the problems but engineer solutions that make the original design much better.
Most of those engines you are referring to were pre-EPA 2010 emissions.....MUCH different animal. (No DPF's on some, no SCR/DEF fluid system and much simpler electronics as they do not have OBD or GHG17 controls for starters.) Basically on any truck that is 2008 or newer you are going to have a real hard time finding an independent shop who can actually diagnose and repair the problem. Independent shops can no longer work on those engines for the most part.
Even OEM truck dealers, who used to work on all makes just like everyone else, no longer work on "off brand" engine stuff anymore. You aren't going to see many Macks at the Freightliner place getting engine work done these days.
As for what tools a dealer can get that others can't: Detroit Diesel diagnostic software. Only available to Franchised Daimler dealers. (Freightliner, Western Star, etc.).
It's stupid, and a bit outdated, but it made sense at the time.
Way back when, I think it was Ford that forced car dealerships to continue buying product, when they weren't selling any.
Car dealerships didn't like that, so they banded together and "unionized"
Car Dealerships are a HUGE source of tax revenue (in states with sales taxes), so they automatically have a leg up on lobbying the government.
Now, as with just about every business, the incumbent will use the clout of the State to "legally" prevent competition from threatening their bottom line.
Let's not forget the "Destination Charge"... as if MSRP wasn't already enough, that's just a sort-of-below the line "**** you, because we can!" fee.
Of course, they dress it up and put a bow on it by saying that they "ensure the vehicles will be supported", and that they are "focused on the needs of the local customers" or some such bull****.
Uuummmm.....destination charges are determined by the manufacturer, not the dealer, and every like-model car has the same destination charge no matter where the plant is and where the car is shipped to. (So every Ford Focus will have the exact same destination charge all over the country.) This cost must be disclosed and is passed onto the customer. Dealers make some profit on cars, but this is not one of those areas where they make money on.
There are certainly plenty of valid gripes against dealers, that is not one of them...
No... the lemon law still applies. If a certified shop (again, certified by the manufacturer) cannot fix the vehicle in the required number of attempts/time allotted by state lemon law the manufacturer buys the car back. The only change is the shop working on it, not the process.
I guess you missed the part about CERTIFIED shops, right? If the tech is certified by the manufacturer to work on a vehicle it does not matter which shop he works for. He can still do the same job, with the same tools. International/Navistar has certified independent repair facilities now that are not dealerships. The warranty is still good there, and anything Navistar comes up with is available to that shop to make the same repairs made at the dealerships. Where's the issue?
The issue is one of leverage - the manufacturer still has some with an actual franchised dealer - if the navistar "certified" dealer just doesn't *feel like* doing a repair, where does the customer go? Keep in mind, lemon laws don't apply to heavy-duty vehicles, so they're not a good comparison- further, heavy vehicle dealers aren't required to have service facilities in every Podunk town in America. Each manufacturer of any size needs probably at /least/ a thousand service facilities coast-to-coast to prevent insane tow/shipping bills. Even then, you'll have some doozies in places like Alaska or the Hawaii islands..
No... the lemon law still applies. If a certified shop (again, certified by the manufacturer) cannot fix the vehicle in the required number of attempts/time allotted by state lemon law the manufacturer buys the car back. The only change is the shop working on it, not the process.
I guess you missed the part about CERTIFIED shops, right? If the tech is certified by the manufacturer to work on a vehicle it does not matter which shop he works for. He can still do the same job, with the same tools. International/Navistar has certified independent repair facilities now that are not dealerships. The warranty is still good there, and anything Navistar comes up with is available to that shop to make the same repairs made at the dealerships. Where's the issue?
Those "certified" shops you are generally referring to are basically parts and/or service dealers who must go through the same training and expense as OEM dealers. They are more like OEM dealers at that point. I know one of them very, very well. They also tend to be in more remote areas or where there is no established OEM dealer already.
Most manufacturers in the truck business have actually reduced the numbers of these in recent years. OEM dealers have opened more of their own rooftops, and when they do, they OEM can pull the "independent" shop's authorization to do warranty repairs and get those tools. If you read the fine print in their contract with the OEM there is usually fine print that gives the OEM several ways to pull the plug on them at any given time. In my area I know of a "certified" Freightliner and International dealer that both got run out of town by an OEM dealer moving in, and one more Cummins dealer is on the way out for the same reasons.
These "certified" shops you speak of are slowly dying off. But even so, they are really small dealers anyway....
For those here who seem to believe it's a given we have to protect dealers (and discourage direct sales) to preserve superior parts & service, this seems to suggest otherwise, and it's a credible source. I'll admit I would have guessed dealer service depts would have prevailed, as manufacturers seem to help give them advantages over independents.
Consumer Reports surveys are hardly representative of the market as a whole because they don't survey the general population, they have a pre-selected, common interest group providing their "data." Even with that, I notice from your figures that two out of three of their respondents still take their cars to the dealer, rather than independent shops.
Most of those engines you are referring to were pre-EPA 2010 emissions.....MUCH different animal. (No DPF's on some, no SCR/DEF fluid system and much simpler electronics as they do not have OBD or GHG17 controls for starters.) Basically on any truck that is 2008 or newer you are going to have a real hard time finding an independent shop who can actually diagnose and repair the problem. Independent shops can no longer work on those engines for the most part.
Even OEM truck dealers, who used to work on all makes just like everyone else, no longer work on "off brand" engine stuff anymore. You aren't going to see many Macks at the Freightliner place getting engine work done these days.
As for what tools a dealer can get that others can't: Detroit Diesel diagnostic software. Only available to Franchised Daimler dealers. (Freightliner, Western Star, etc.).
This just shows that you know nothing about diesel dealerships or diesel engines. I am talking 2008+ vehicles complete with emission controls in place. Independent shops around this area can work on any diesel, regardless of the age. There is equipment out there that will analyze the emission system on new diesels and point out the problem. Heck, the trucks themselves will TELL you what is wrong. When the DPF fails, the truck won't start and the code presented TELLS you why. The emissions systems on these trucks are NOT that complicated.
You can't compare seeing a Mack at a FL dealer because it's a DEALERSHIP. The dealerships have equipment to work on THEIR brand of vehicle. An in independent has equipment to work on them all. Otherwise they wouldn't be in business.
DD diagnostic software is available to anyone. For $2,500 YOU can go out today and buy the laptop and software to work on it yourself. Oh..... and in case you're wondering, the software also includes emissions diagnostic software which will even force most vehicles to go into regen whether the computer says it is needed or not. Not sure where you are getting your info, but it is incorrect.
The issue is one of leverage - the manufacturer still has some with an actual franchised dealer - if the navistar "certified" dealer just doesn't *feel like* doing a repair, where does the customer go? Keep in mind, lemon laws don't apply to heavy-duty vehicles, so they're not a good comparison- further, heavy vehicle dealers aren't required to have service facilities in every Podunk town in America. Each manufacturer of any size needs probably at /least/ a thousand service facilities coast-to-coast to prevent insane tow/shipping bills. Even then, you'll have some doozies in places like Alaska or the Hawaii islands..
If the Navistar certified shop refuses to repair Navistar equipment, they lose their certification and can no longer do warranty work for the manufacturer. At that point, the shop stands the chance to lose a lot of money on repairs they can no longer do. I've not seen many (if any at all) that will risk losing a contract with a manufacturer because it could shut down their business.
I'd venture to say you won't find many places where there aren't some level of independent shops within a 30 mile radius of each other, so trying to find enough shops to cover the work isn't nearly as difficult as you think.
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