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I'd be more inclined to buy an American car if most were as reliable or economical as its Japanese competitors at the same price. There are a handful - the Chevy Volt is a fantastic car in its niche, and easily out-competes vehicles like the Prius and Accord Plug-Ins. However, when comparing, say, a Focus to a Civic, I know which one I'll choose.
Understand completely where u are coming from. Now if we were Japan, and Japan was the United States that lil ol Civic would be twice the cost, how would you feel about it then?
GM should just buy Suzuki and give them autonomy like with Saturn but with a larger budget to compete with Honda/Toyota. That way GM can ditch making cars except for sportier ones.
I'd be more inclined to buy an American car if most were as reliable or economical as its Japanese competitors at the same price. There are a handful - the Chevy Volt is a fantastic car in its niche, and easily out-competes vehicles like the Prius and Accord Plug-Ins. However, when comparing, say, a Focus to a Civic, I know which one I'll choose.
The Focus has "exotic" European levels of complexity that you'd expect from more premium brands but reliability and service isn't at the level for the complexity. It's why Volkswagen does so poorly in America. GM is doing this too and it's all thanks to Obama's cafe requirements. Shrink the engines, tune them for fuel efficiency making them lethargic, auto start stop, but heavy cars because the domestics are self conscious about interior style and quality.
The Asians can throw together a light weight well screwed together simple car with good engines that don't need the turbo aides like the Europeans, which is what GM could be doing in my opinion. Bring back push rods, throw on a supercharger, make the interiors more hard plastic, call it a day.
honda make great cars but for some reason sell quite poorly in europe , they are more expensive than VW or toyota and obviously ford , they are better than those ( especially VW ) but are sort of caught in the middle of your average buyer choice and the more exclusive entry level prices lexus , bmw , mercedes . i suppose many believe rather than paying 40 k euro for a honda accord , i might as well pay 45 k for a low level bmw or lexus , honday while great has no brand status in the way bmw , mercedes or lexus does .
personally i think ford offer the best value out there when it comes to value and quality , i believe ford is superior to VW , handles better and looks less conformist , ive never ever rated anything GM have made .
Even with that, there is not a single publication that accurately calculates the domestic content percentages. The use of supplier-built subassemblies dramatically increases the domestic content percentage over what it should be. The Asian companies in particular started doing a lot of this to portray themselves as more American than they really are.
For example, Toyota can ship 100 parts from Japan or China to a subassembly plant just outside their main plant. If the supplier assembles those 100 foreign parts together to make an instrument panel, and brings it across the street into the main plant, it counts as 100% domestic content because the end-item part number (the instrument panel) was put together in the US. So even though all the parts are foreign that all counts as domestic content - that’s the fatal flaw in the calculation.
So you explain why Toyota and Honda "bend the rules" to make that list. I still doesn't explain why only 3 vehicles by US companies made the list.
PS Sorry I am not THAT invested in this thread to reply in a quicker time. 6 pages of comments have gone by...
So you explain why Toyota and Honda "bend the rules" to make that list. I still doesn't explain why only 3 vehicles by US companies made the list.
PS Sorry I am not THAT invested in this thread to reply in a quicker time. 6 pages of comments have gone by...
If you literally tore down every vehicle, part by part, and documented where the parts came from and classified them that way, Ford and GM cars would dominate the domestic content list.
I did this exact thing in one of my jobs and we looked at the F-150, Silverado, Ram, Tundra and Titan. The Tundra domestic content was really closer to 35% but they claim they are at 70%. Subassemblers like this one is how they manipulate the numbers:
If you literally tore down every vehicle, part by part, and documented where the parts came from and classified them that way, Ford and GM cars would dominate the domestic content list.
I did this exact thing in one of my jobs and we looked at the F-150, Silverado, Ram, Tundra and Titan. The Tundra domestic content was really closer to 35% but they claim they are at 70%. Subassemblers like this one is how they manipulate the numbers:
Will Ford/GM be at 100%? Of course not as everyone imports some parts...
So? What does this prove other than Asian and European car makers have invested jobs and factories into this country while the Big 3 continue to lose market share and send jobs south of the border.
Take my home state of Georgia. GM has shuttered the Doraville and Lakewood plants in Atlanta. Ford had its plant in Hapeville, built the Taurus in the 80s and 90s when it was the best selling car in America. In the late 90s Ford eyed two spots further from Atlanta to replace the aging Hapeville plant and produce the new Fusion. One spot was in my home county of Meriwether, just far enough out of Atlanta to not be reaping the benefits of the metro area boom. A rather depressed county as far as jobs go.
What did Ford do? They shuttered the Hapeville plant and built a factory in Mexico over Georgia to build the Fusion.
In the meantime, Kia builds their first US plant in West Point, Georgia in Troup County, adjacent to Meriwether County. Meriwether developed the land that at one point was being eyed for the Ford plant into a small industrial park which is now home to 4 suppliers for said Kia plant.
So while I am all pro American Industry when I can be, I look at the two big automakers vacating my home state but a South Korean car brand investing in the state. And so what if the parts are assembled parts originally from Asia as you claim? They are being assembled in a Factory bringing jobs into a Georgia county that had seen no decent manufacturing jobs come its way in decades.
Again, I cannot see a trade war benefiting the US if it punishes companies that have made large investments in the US and are bringing jobs to American workers.
So? What does this prove other than Asian and European car makers have invested jobs and factories into this country while the Big 3 continue to lose market share and send jobs south of the border.
Take my home state of Georgia. GM has shuttered the Doraville and Lakewood plants in Atlanta. Ford had its plant in Hapeville, built the Taurus in the 80s and 90s when it was the best selling car in America. In the late 90s Ford eyed two spots further from Atlanta to replace the aging Hapeville plant and produce the new Fusion. One spot was in my home county of Meriwether, just far enough out of Atlanta to not be reaping the benefits of the metro area boom. A rather depressed county as far as jobs go.
What did Ford do? They shuttered the Hapeville plant and built a factory in Mexico over Georgia to build the Fusion.
In the meantime, Kia builds their first US plant in West Point, Georgia in Troup County, adjacent to Meriwether County. Meriwether developed the land that at one point was being eyed for the Ford plant into a small industrial park which is now home to 4 suppliers for said Kia plant.
So while I am all pro American Industry when I can be, I look at the two big automakers vacating my home state but a South Korean car brand investing in the state. And so what if the parts are assembled parts originally from Asia as you claim? They are being assembled in a Factory bringing jobs into a Georgia county that had seen no decent manufacturing jobs come its way in decades.
Again, I cannot see a trade war benefiting the US if it punishes companies that have made large investments in the US and are bringing jobs to American workers.
Did your state and county give GM and Ford the same tax break that they gave Kia to open shop. These plants in the south are their because of the huge tax cuts they get from the state that they want to build there in fact states get into a bidding war to attract a big company to open shop.
So? What does this prove other than Asian and European car makers have invested jobs and factories into this country while the Big 3 continue to lose market share and send jobs south of the border.
Take my home state of Georgia. GM has shuttered the Doraville and Lakewood plants in Atlanta. Ford had its plant in Hapeville, built the Taurus in the 80s and 90s when it was the best selling car in America. In the late 90s Ford eyed two spots further from Atlanta to replace the aging Hapeville plant and produce the new Fusion. One spot was in my home county of Meriwether, just far enough out of Atlanta to not be reaping the benefits of the metro area boom. A rather depressed county as far as jobs go.
What did Ford do? They shuttered the Hapeville plant and built a factory in Mexico over Georgia to build the Fusion.
In the meantime, Kia builds their first US plant in West Point, Georgia in Troup County, adjacent to Meriwether County. Meriwether developed the land that at one point was being eyed for the Ford plant into a small industrial park which is now home to 4 suppliers for said Kia plant.
So while I am all pro American Industry when I can be, I look at the two big automakers vacating my home state but a South Korean car brand investing in the state. And so what if the parts are assembled parts originally from Asia as you claim? They are being assembled in a Factory bringing jobs into a Georgia county that had seen no decent manufacturing jobs come its way in decades.
Again, I cannot see a trade war benefiting the US if it punishes companies that have made large investments in the US and are bringing jobs to American workers.
Lots of issues to discuss here:
-For starters, Ford did not build a plant in Mexico for the Fusion. They used a plant they already owned there and also built Fusions in Flat Rock, MI.
-All automakers build in Mexico so that's irrelevant to this discussion, but a separate issue altogether.
-I understand why someone in Georgia would think the way you do, but that's a narrow minded view in my opinion. (Focusing on the impact of one state and not the country as a whole.) While Honda may have added some assembly jobs, they did not add enough to offset the loss of domestic assembly jobs in Michigan and other areas, plus US supplier jobs lost as well due to Honda using primary imported parts. That's why donmestic content percentages are important. (Real numbers...not the subassembly inflated version.)
-Even with these added Japanese jobs in the US, which is certainly better than importing cars, the domestics still produce more than double the amount in the US. In addition, the US companies pay American workers more than Japanese companies for the exact same job, provide better benefits, retirement plans, etc.
-The reason the Japanese came here in full force is because they were allowed to invest in the US with no fear of the same happening in reverse. The whole point of this thread is people like me just ask for free trade to be established both ways and let the best man win.
-For starters, Ford did not build a plant in Mexico for the Fusion. They used a plant they already owned there and also built Fusions in Flat Rock, MI.
-All automakers build in Mexico so that's irrelevant to this discussion, but a separate issue altogether.
-I understand why someone in Georgia would think the way you do, but that's a narrow minded view in my opinion. (Focusing on the impact of one state and not the country as a whole.) While Honda may have added some assembly jobs, they did not add enough to offset the loss of domestic assembly jobs in Michigan and other areas, plus US supplier jobs lost as well due to Honda using primary imported parts. That's why donmestic content percentages are important. (Real numbers...not the subassembly inflated version.)
-Even with these added Japanese jobs in the US, which is certainly better than importing cars, the domestics still produce more than double the amount in the US. In addition, the US companies pay American workers more than Japanese companies for the exact same job, provide better benefits, retirement plans, etc.
-The reason the Japanese came here in full force is because they were allowed to invest in the US with no fear of the same happening in reverse. The whole point of this thread is people like me just ask for free trade to be established both ways and let the best man win.
You are 100% on spot with your post, not just the auto industry either(course that's another thread
). How so many politicians and Americans can't grasp this concept is beyond me.
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