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See, this is the attitude I just find absolutely bizarre... Why would you call out the commenter and ask what he or she is doing to solve the problem? What in the world do you expect them to do?
My point is that the responsibility to do the right thing falls on the shoulders' of the people involved in the crime. NOT YOU OR ME. If they chose to assault someone and break the law, then they need to be punished. This attitude that someone else needs to swoop in and 'help' them make better choices is well-intentioned, but I think we've seen over and over again that it simply doesn't work.
Personal responsibility starts with the individual. Period. And if they can't figure that out and become citizens who contribute, then they'll end up in jail or worse. Enough with being the perpetual victim.
This is where ignorance about these situations come from. Unless you have been around individuals like this, you don't understand how you can help. The biggest issue that these individuals have is people like you who say that "it simply doesn't work". Can you imagine some of these people who have been told their entire life that they are nothing and they will never be nothing. Is it no wonder they have little regard for their own lives or anyone else? People who do stuff like this do not care about anyone or anything.
The reality is there is hope for them, yes, even these young men. It starts by someone giving them a different outlook. You are symptom of the environment you grew up in, whether that is good or bad. If all you know is drug dealing, robbing and stealing, then why would you do anything different? These individuals don't know anything about having real jobs, having real families and doing productive things because people like you don't even think they are worth the time, to show them something different and the people around them won't either. I'm sick and tired of people coming on this thread and pointing out that they are black. WHO CARES???? It is so irrelevant to the point. Regardless of their race, these are just some sick individuals that need to be taken off the street. Their race isn't influencing their behavior, it's their environment.
If you are going to sit here and complain, then stay in your house and keep your mouth shut. But if you want to go out and not have to worry about being a victim like this man was, then why not do more than just come on the internet and complain? Should these men take responsibility for their actions? 100% yes, never said they shouldn't. There are young people who look up to these individuals and even are perhaps are offspring of these individuals that are watching them, seeing a poor example of what they should be, and continuing a cycle of reckless behavior. Just because it's not your family or the fact that you aren't directly affected by them, you couldn't care less, could you? As long as you stay in your home and they stay away from you, you couldn't care less about what these individuals are doing and how they are just contributing to a decaying society, could you?
But you know what's ironic, they are just as ignorant about how to be productive, law-abiding citizens just as much as you are ignorant about thinking people grew up in the same conditions that you did and were taught the same things. If you have children, I'm sure you will understand that, if you do not discipline your children at a young age, they will continue to do what was not corrected for years. At some point they will be held responsible for those actions (which they should be), but if they have never been told it's wrong before then, then why would you expect them to act different. Just something for you to think about.
People need to stop blaming others for their own shortcomings and "position" in life. Being poor, from "the hood", from a trailer park, etc. does not matter. You can blame the man all you want, but at some point you need to realize that will only go so far. You put up your own walls.
These people did what they did because their community, their "street", says that it is acceptable and ok. As a community, it is not ok. As a community we all have the responsibility to change perceptions and build better lives. These people need to realize that respect comes from using your intelligence, from behaving and acting like a civilized member of society; not from fear; not from intimidation; not from being tough, street, thug, etc. Malcolm X, MLK, Jr., The Black Panthers, et. al. knew that a book was a more powerful weapon than a gun.
What will happen to those who have been arrested? Honestly, I think they will be used as an example. They won't get ten years in prison, but I'll bet they get the maximum sentence the crimes they are charged with carrier.
Then again, the Eliyahu and Avi Werdesheim case that is expected to be decided on this afternoon may bury the St. Paddy's Day event to the back page.
I don't re-call anyone saying that 'the man' held them back. I'm not sure if you were referring to what I said, but it seems like some of the posters are making a lot of assumptions about people on here. I never said they shouldn't be punished, never excused their behavior and never said that the victim deserved to be hurt. To your point though, being poor or from the hood may not be relevant, but being from a bad environment is. There are individuals that live in middle class America who aren't raised by their parents well and become criminals just like these men. This is an indictment on the environment they were placed in. As you said, if they are told what they are doing is okay, then why would they change? They are being enabled. That doesn't mean what they are doing is okay, but if you want to look at the cause of this behavior, it starts at their home.
People need to stop blaming others for their own shortcomings and "position" in life. Being poor, from "the hood", from a trailer park, etc. does not matter. You can blame the man all you want, but at some point you need to realize that will only go so far. You put up your own walls.
These people did what they did because their community, their "street", says that it is acceptable and ok. As a community, it is not ok. As a community we all have the responsibility to change perceptions and build better lives. These people need to realize that respect comes from using your intelligence, from behaving and acting like a civilized member of society; not from fear; not from intimidation; not from being tough, street, thug, etc. Malcolm X, MLK, Jr., The Black Panthers, et. al. knew that a book was a more powerful weapon than a gun.
What will happen to those who have been arrested? Honestly, I think they will be used as an example. They won't get ten years in prison, but I'll bet they get the maximum sentence the crimes they are charged with carrier.
Then again, the Eliyahu and Avi Werdesheim case that is expected to be decided on this afternoon may bury the St. Paddy's Day event to the back page.
The Wedesheim case is gonna be an interesting one since the victim wants the charges dropped but the state is going to move forward anyway.. I thought they were even going to charge the victim with contempt of court or something to that effect.. Bizarre...Wonder why he wanted the charges dropped? I guess he may go civil court on them or both parties may just sue each other for various reasons.... Lawyer up....
The Wedesheim case is gonna be an interesting one since the victim wants the charges dropped but the state is going to move forward anyway.. I thought they were even going to charge the victim with contempt of court or something to that effect.. Bizarre...Wonder why he wanted the charges dropped? I guess he may go civil court on them or both parties may just sue each other for various reasons.... Lawyer up....
My guess is the kid wanted the charges dropped because he didn't want to relive the experience of getting beat up over and over. I'm Jewish, and while Black-Jewish relations are extraordinary complex, this case was not. Eli Werdesheim has no right to take the law into his own hands.
My guess is the kid wanted the charges dropped because he didn't want to relive the experience of getting beat up over and over. I'm Jewish, and while Black-Jewish relations are extraordinary complex, this case was not. Eli Werdesheim has no right to take the law into his own hands.
Yeah.. I was thinking that or he didnt want to somehow implicate himself and be viewed as being the aggressor and thus have the tables turned and he becomes the defendant because of some technicality. The Shorim folks said he was looking in windows and if that is true I wonder if he could be charged with that??? I can see cities and towns now looking to legislate what neighborhood watches can and cant do after this case and the Tyvon Martin incident.
I don't re-call anyone saying that 'the man' held them back. I'm not sure if you were referring to what I said, but it seems like some of the posters are making a lot of assumptions about people on here. I never said they shouldn't be punished, never excused their behavior and never said that the victim deserved to be hurt. To your point though, being poor or from the hood may not be relevant, but being from a bad environment is. There are individuals that live in middle class America who aren't raised by their parents well and become criminals just like these men. This is an indictment on the environment they were placed in. As you said, if they are told what they are doing is okay, then why would they change? They are being enabled. That doesn't mean what they are doing is okay, but if you want to look at the cause of this behavior, it starts at their home.
So here is the scenerio:
2 kids in bad situations, one turns into a criminal, one turns into a lawyer.
2 kids in a good situation, one turns into a criminal, one turns into a lawyer.
Notice, same situation, different kids, different results. The dependant variable is the behavior of the kid. The behavior of the kid may or may not match what is predicted based on the independent variable, the situation they were raised in.
So really, it comes back to the individual. A bad upbringing and future bad behavior are correlated, but they are not CASUAL. Since being from a bad hood isn't linked by causation to the behaviors kids CHOOSE to partcipate in, it is a poor excuse for bad behavior, hardly an excuse at all, a mitigating circumstance at best.
Everybody has free will, and a conscience. If they kids didn't understand that what they were doing was objectively wrong in the eyes of society, they should claim the insanity defense. Otherwise, tough nuggets.
2 kids in bad situations, one turns into a criminal, one turns into a lawyer.
2 kids in a good situation, one turns into a criminal, one turns into a lawyer.
Notice, same situation, different kids, different results. The dependant variable is the behavior of the kid. The behavior of the kid may or may not match what is predicted based on the independent variable, the situation they were raised in.
So really, it comes back to the individual. A bad upbringing and future bad behavior are correlated, but they are not CASUAL. Since being from a bad hood isn't linked by causation to the behaviors kids CHOOSE to partcipate in, it is a poor excuse for bad behavior, hardly an excuse at all, a mitigating circumstance at best.
Everybody has free will, and a conscience. If they kids didn't understand that what they were doing was objectively wrong in the eyes of society, they should claim the insanity defense. Otherwise, tough nuggets.
Here's the issue with what your example has. Can you guarantee that those two poor kids grow up in the same type of home with the some type of values or at least have the same types of positive influences around them? There are a lot of variables that go into this, which is why you can have kids growing up in the same household and go in opposite directions. I'm not excusing the behavior, I'm simply explaining where this behavior is coming from. There is no excuse for the behavior, but let's not pretend that these kids learning to be criminals is normal. There is something wrong with them thinking that this behavior is okay. What irritates me is some people in this thread will have you believe just because they are black, they are subject to being poor, ignorant and criminal. I'm black, grew up middle class, got a Masters Degree, married have children, and never been in trouble in my life. My skin color didn't have anything to do with me being a success or failure, it has been how I was raised and the expectation that my family had for me. Do you honestly think these same young men can relate to anything I've experienced or how I see life? You would be amazed at how difficult it is for me to relate to people like these young men because of different our upbringings may have been. Clearly skin color isn't what it's being made to be.
Here's the issue with what your example has. Can you guarantee that those two poor kids grow up in the same type of home with the some type of values or at least have the same types of positive influences around them? There are a lot of variables that go into this, which is why you can have kids growing up in the same household and go in opposite directions. I'm not excusing the behavior, I'm simply explaining where this behavior is coming from. There is no excuse for the behavior, but let's not pretend that these kids learning to be criminals is normal. There is something wrong with them thinking that this behavior is okay. What irritates me is some people in this thread will have you believe just because they are black, they are subject to being poor, ignorant and criminal. I'm black, grew up middle class, got a Masters Degree, married have children, and never been in trouble in my life. My skin color didn't have anything to do with me being a success or failure, it has been how I was raised and the expectation that my family had for me. Do you honestly think these same young men can relate to anything I've experienced or how I see life? You would be amazed at how difficult it is for me to relate to people like these young men because of different our upbringings may have been. Clearly skin color isn't what it's being made to be.
I didn't bring up skin color. I brought up how children are raised. There are alot of variables that make people turn out they way they do. None have ever found to be causal. If there were causal variables that made kids acts turn into criminals, it could be corrected, there isn't.
Instead you have many correlational variables. These variables can be the same and yet you end up with kids with very different behavior patterns. Like I said, the independant and dependant variables don't form a straight line, it is scatter chart.
Personal responsibility comes into play at a point in everyone's life. Those kids could have beaten that man senseless and robbed him, or they could have kept walking. They had the CHOICE. Nobody made it for them. If the alleged crimials can honestly say they didn't know society at large would judge their actions as being wrong and criminal, then they can claim insanity.
How THEY feel about their actions is largely irrelevant. We all see laws and societal norms we don't agree with, but accept them. These young people didn't accept that society says they couldn't beat the SH$T out someone and take what didn't belong to them, which makes them alleged criminals. I have zero compassion for this kind of behavior. It is criminally thuggery, pure and simple.
Yeah.. I was thinking that or he didnt want to somehow implicate himself and be viewed as being the aggressor and thus have the tables turned and he becomes the defendant because of some technicality. The Shorim folks said he was looking in windows and if that is true I wonder if he could be charged with that??? I can see cities and towns now looking to legislate what neighborhood watches can and cant do after this case and the Tyvon Martin incident.
There already are clear guidelines from the police on what neighborhood watches can and cannot do. It just so happens that some folks choose not to follow them.
Also Shomrim is not a neighborhood watch organization. It's more like a quasi-security force. Take a look at Shomrim's about us page. Now take a look at the website of the Northwest Citizens Patrol, a real neighborhood watch that operates in the same neighborhood. There's a big difference.
This is where ignorance about these situations come from. Unless you have been around individuals like this, you don't understand how you can help. The biggest issue that these individuals have is people like you who say that "it simply doesn't work". Can you imagine some of these people who have been told their entire life that they are nothing and they will never be nothing. Is it no wonder they have little regard for their own lives or anyone else? People who do stuff like this do not care about anyone or anything.
The reality is there is hope for them, yes, even these young men. It starts by someone giving them a different outlook. You are symptom of the environment you grew up in, whether that is good or bad. If all you know is drug dealing, robbing and stealing, then why would you do anything different? These individuals don't know anything about having real jobs, having real families and doing productive things because people like you don't even think they are worth the time, to show them something different and the people around them won't either. I'm sick and tired of people coming on this thread and pointing out that they are black. WHO CARES???? It is so irrelevant to the point. Regardless of their race, these are just some sick individuals that need to be taken off the street. Their race isn't influencing their behavior, it's their environment.
If you are going to sit here and complain, then stay in your house and keep your mouth shut. But if you want to go out and not have to worry about being a victim like this man was, then why not do more than just come on the internet and complain? Should these men take responsibility for their actions? 100% yes, never said they shouldn't. There are young people who look up to these individuals and even are perhaps are offspring of these individuals that are watching them, seeing a poor example of what they should be, and continuing a cycle of reckless behavior. Just because it's not your family or the fact that you aren't directly affected by them, you couldn't care less, could you? As long as you stay in your home and they stay away from you, you couldn't care less about what these individuals are doing and how they are just contributing to a decaying society, could you?
But you know what's ironic, they are just as ignorant about how to be productive, law-abiding citizens just as much as you are ignorant about thinking people grew up in the same conditions that you did and were taught the same things. If you have children, I'm sure you will understand that, if you do not discipline your children at a young age, they will continue to do what was not corrected for years. At some point they will be held responsible for those actions (which they should be), but if they have never been told it's wrong before then, then why would you expect them to act different. Just something for you to think about.
Well, I never brought up their race in my post, but that's neither here nor there.
It's funny you think this doesn't affect me. I have friends who live in Baltimore. I visit Baltimore often - I love that city and have wonderful memories there. It absolutely affects me. But since I said the responsibility for their actions is theirs alone, (which you agreed with 100% ironically) you tell me I should just stay in my house and keep my mouth shut? So that's your solution? Quit my 'complaining?' That makes sooooo much sense. Let's all just keep our mouths shut and stay in our houses, not complain and let the tourism industry in Baltimore completely collapse, shall we? That would be GREAT for Baltimore, right?
But I'm as ignorant as the criminals in the video, huh? Ok. Thanks for enlightening me. I didn't realize that continually making excuses for an entire segment of the population was working out so well. My bad.
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