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I didn't bring up skin color. I brought up how children are raised. There are alot of variables that make people turn out they way they do. None have ever found to be causal. If there were causal variables that made kids acts turn into criminals, it could be corrected, there isn't.
I didn't suggest that you did mentioned race. I was referring to the other posters.
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Originally Posted by westsideboy
Instead you have many correlational variables. These variables can be the same and yet you end up with kids with very different behavior patterns. Like I said, the independant and dependant variables don't form a straight line, it is scatter chart.
That's not entirely true and it's almost impossible. Prime example of this would be myself and my brother. My brother isn't bad, hasn't committed any crimes but at the same time, didn't apply himself the same as I may have. He of course was much older than me so his experience was different because he went to different schools, hung around different people, and had a very different relationship with our parents. Based on your original post, we should be on the same path. I don't see how that can be true. Is there some individualism there? Sure, we make choices based on what is right or wrong, but getting back to the point about these criminals, how can someone choose to do the right thing if they don't know what the right thing is? I'm really serious. People are assuming that they should know better. Who was supposed to teach them that if their parents never did?
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Originally Posted by westsideboy
Personal responsibility comes into play at a point in everyone's life. Those kids could have beaten that man senseless and robbed him, or they could have kept walking. They had the CHOICE. Nobody made it for them. If the alleged crimials can honestly say they didn't know society at large would judge their actions as being wrong and criminal, then they can claim insanity.
It does. I agree 100% which is why I don't consider them victims. Once you get a certain age, you are responsible for the decisions you make, but that doesn't mean they know what decisions are right. Let me put it like this, there are many people who get sent to prison for doing wrong things and because their punishment is so harsh, they realize that what they were doing before will have severe consequences and ultimately lead them to where they are, so when they get out, you see SOME individuals who are willing to change. Do you think their behavior would change if they didn't go to prison? Unfortunately law enforcement is becoming the teacher of right and wrong. It shouldn't be that way. Do you think all of these individuals want to go to prison?
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Originally Posted by westsideboy
How THEY feel about their actions is largely irrelevant. We all see laws and societal norms we don't agree with, but accept them. These young people didn't accept that society says they couldn't beat the SH$T out someone and take what didn't belong to them, which makes them alleged criminals. I have zero compassion for this kind of behavior. It is criminally thuggery, pure and simple.
At what point do we accept them though? Do we accept them because we have been taught not to do them and/or we know the consequences? Or is it because we just 'naturally' understand what is right or wrong? You're talking about people who for the most part stay completely locked away from society. These boys/men probably didn't go to school too much, probably don't read the newspaper or watch the news or have anyone around them to teach them these things. So how will they learn?
I believe they have to take full responsibility for their actions. It's no different than doing taxes. You may not know how to do it, but you still have to do it. If you get punished for not doing your taxes, it's your own fault for not getting help, but if you grew up in a home where your parents never did them and never got in trouble for it, then why would you do any different?
Again I'm not defending these guys, I'm just giving perspective. People want to complain about these individuals, but don't understand why these people are so jacked up. It's just a cycle of bad decisions. Either you accept it or try to fix the problem.
Well, I never brought up their race in my post, but that's neither here nor there.
It's funny you think this doesn't affect me. I have friends who live in Baltimore. I visit Baltimore often - I love that city and have wonderful memories there. It absolutely affects me. But since I said the responsibility for their actions is theirs alone, (which you agreed with 100% ironically) you tell me I should just stay in my house and keep my mouth shut? So that's your solution? Quit my 'complaining?' That makes sooooo much sense. Let's all just keep our mouths shut and stay in our houses, not complain and let the tourism industry in Baltimore completely collapse, shall we? That would be GREAT for Baltimore, right?
But I'm as ignorant as the criminals in the video, huh? Ok. Thanks for enlightening me. I didn't realize that continually making excuses for an entire segment of the population was working out so well. My bad.
Nobody is making excuses for them. It just comes down to what you said, that basically these individuals can't be helped. Well if you feel that way, then why keep complaining? You obviously feel as though things will never change, so what is your ongoing rhetoric going to accomplish?
If Baltimore is a place you enjoy, then you should be prepared to know that these type of individuals live there (as well as other parts of the country). If you don't like it, do something about it, but if you want to change it, help fix the problem.
I didn't suggest that you did mentioned race. I was referring to the other posters.
That's not entirely true and it's almost impossible. Prime example of this would be myself and my brother. My brother isn't bad, hasn't committed any crimes but at the same time, didn't apply himself the same as I may have. He of course was much older than me so his experience was different because he went to different schools, hung around different people, and had a very different relationship with our parents. Based on your original post, we should be on the same path. I don't see how that can be true. Is there some individualism there? Sure, we make choices based on what is right or wrong, but getting back to the point about these criminals, how can someone choose to do the right thing if they don't know what the right thing is? I'm really serious. People are assuming that they should know better. Who was supposed to teach them that if their parents never did?
It does. I agree 100% which is why I don't consider them victims. Once you get a certain age, you are responsible for the decisions you make, but that doesn't mean they know what decisions are right. Let me put it like this, there are many people who get sent to prison for doing wrong things and because their punishment is so harsh, they realize that what they were doing before will have severe consequences and ultimately lead them to where they are, so when they get out, you see SOME individuals who are willing to change. Do you think their behavior would change if they didn't go to prison? Unfortunately law enforcement is becoming the teacher of right and wrong. It shouldn't be that way. Do you think all of these individuals want to go to prison?
At what point do we accept them though? Do we accept them because we have been taught not to do them and/or we know the consequences? Or is it because we just 'naturally' understand what is right or wrong? You're talking about people who for the most part stay completely locked away from society. These boys/men probably didn't go to school too much, probably don't read the newspaper or watch the news or have anyone around them to teach them these things. So how will they learn?
I believe they have to take full responsibility for their actions. It's no different than doing taxes. You may not know how to do it, but you still have to do it. If you get punished for not doing your taxes, it's your own fault for not getting help, but if you grew up in a home where your parents never did them and never got in trouble for it, then why would you do any different?
Again I'm not defending these guys, I'm just giving perspective. People want to complain about these individuals, but don't understand why these people are so jacked up. It's just a cycle of bad decisions. Either you accept it or try to fix the problem.
You completely misunderstand what I am trying to say. I am saying the variables can be EXACTLY the same, yet the kids can end up with completely DIFFERENT behavior patterns. Be it bad parenting and circumstance or good, there is something unique inside all of us that is independent of how we were raised. That uniqueness is expressed in the choices we make. That is why "how you were raised" is never an excuse when people commit crimes. As I said, it is a mitigating circumstance at best.
I do want to fix the problem: Put the criminals in jail. Don't let them out. I would much rather have my tax dollars go to keeping animals behind bars, then providing them food, housing, welfare bucks to keep victimizing people in the rest of society.
If you have better ideas, go for it. Like I said, my compassion level for violent criminals is ZERO. Beating the sh$t out of someone and robbing them isn't the same as making a mistake on your taxes. It is conscious violence against others for personal gain, not a mistake on an IRS form.
I will say it for the 3rd time, if those young people legitimately didn't know that society would view what they did as being wrong, they can claim insanity.
You completely misunderstand what I am trying to say. I am saying the variables can be EXACTLY the same, yet the kids can end up with completely DIFFERENT behavior patterns. Be it bad parenting and circumstance or good, there is something unique inside all of us that is independent of how we were raised. That uniqueness is expressed in the choices we make. That is why "how you were raised" is never an excuse when people commit crimes. As I said, it is a mitigating circumstance at best.
I do want to fix the problem: Put the criminals in jail. Don't let them out. I would much rather have my tax dollars go to keeping animals behind bars, then providing them food, housing, welfare bucks to keep victimizing people in the rest of society.
If you have better ideas, go for it. Like I said, my compassion level for violent criminals is ZERO. Beating the sh$t out of someone and robbing them isn't the same as making a mistake on your taxes. It is conscious violence against others for personal gain, not a mistake on an IRS form.
I will say it for the 3rd time, if those young people legitimately didn't know that society would view what they did as being wrong, they can claim insanity.
No I hear you, I just don't agree. I just think no matter what, two people no matter how close they are will not have the same exact experience. Certain things may be similar which shapes their idea of what they allow to influence them, but ultimately they will have different experiences. And I think you are still viewing things in the way you see them. Same reason why people do stuff like this, is the same reason why people have different belief systems. Everybody has their own idea of what's right or wrong.
Okay I'm fine with putting them in jail. I believe that anyone who commits crime should be punished, but I feel if I can I would like to stop them from even getting to that point. We have different approaches but the same goal in mind, stopping things like this from happening. I don't disagree with you at all, I just would rather do my part to help prevent this than to complain. Everyone is different and I'm not suggesting that everyone should do the same thing, but if people are going to complain about this then why not. We will have to hear the same tired argument for the rest of our lives about how people are tired of this happening.
The point wasn't to compare taxes to beating someone, the point was to show, how if you don't know any better you won't do better. Let me ask you, do you have kids or at least younger siblings that you saw growing up? Have you ever seen little kids do bad things like trying to play with electric outlets or hitting other kids? How do you stop them from doing those things? If they knew that when they were born, because it was 'common sense' they wouldn't do them would they? Somebody had to teach them right? Kids don't just come into this world having a "uniqueness" to know what is right or wrong. Of course when they get older they have a choice to do the right things or not, but that is irrelevant to what I am stating. What if those kids never learned what good choices to make? You are assuming that kids automatically know right from wrong. So what is the point of parents?
And believe it or not, SOME of them could probably plead insanity. If you grew up without having parents or grew up around drug dealers, you probably be a little off too. I don't think that is going to help them though by pleading insanity. They need to know that their actions are wrong and discipline has to take place at some point whether it's the parents or society. If they still don't learn then yes you probably can argue that they are incapable of ever learning and perhaps need to get help and be locked away.
No I hear you, I just don't agree. I just think no matter what, two people no matter how close they are will not have the same exact experience. Certain things may be similar which shapes their idea of what they allow to influence them, but ultimately they will have different experiences. And I think you are still viewing things in the way you see them. Same reason why people do stuff like this, is the same reason why people have different belief systems. Everybody has their own idea of what's right or wrong.
Okay I'm fine with putting them in jail. I believe that anyone who commits crime should be punished, but I feel if I can I would like to stop them from even getting to that point. We have different approaches but the same goal in mind, stopping things like this from happening. I don't disagree with you at all, I just would rather do my part to help prevent this than to complain. Everyone is different and I'm not suggesting that everyone should do the same thing, but if people are going to complain about this then why not. We will have to hear the same tired argument for the rest of our lives about how people are tired of this happening.
The point wasn't to compare taxes to beating someone, the point was to show, how if you don't know any better you won't do better. Let me ask you, do you have kids or at least younger siblings that you saw growing up? Have you ever seen little kids do bad things like trying to play with electric outlets or hitting other kids? How do you stop them from doing those things? If they knew that when they were born, because it was 'common sense' they wouldn't do them would they? Somebody had to teach them right? Kids don't just come into this world having a "uniqueness" to know what is right or wrong. Of course when they get older they have a choice to do the right things or not, but that is irrelevant to what I am stating. What if those kids never learned what good choices to make? You are assuming that kids automatically know right from wrong. So what is the point of parents?
And believe it or not, SOME of them could probably plead insanity. If you grew up without having parents or grew up around drug dealers, you probably be a little off too. I don't think that is going to help them though by pleading insanity. They need to know that their actions are wrong and discipline has to take place at some point whether it's the parents or society. If they still don't learn then yes you probably can argue that they are incapable of ever learning and perhaps need to get help and be locked away.
Well, if your point is that no two people or circumstance are EXACTLY the same, then of course, you are right. Nothing is every exactly identical to something else.
So I hear what you are saying there, but I think we both agree that it makes sense to try and define variables that correlate with crime, and then see how strong the correlation is. In the end, the correlation is never 100% with any one variable. That is my point. Bad parents can have good kids, good parents can have bad kids, there is more at play here than just the environment in which kids are raised. But I think we agree about that.
I do have kids. I can say they came out of the womb as their own entities, with their own way of doing things from moment one. When they are young, they aren't necessarily programmed to do good things or bad things, they are essentially animals (humanity is very thin veneer painted on all of us.) As you age, you reach a time when you can reason, a time when you can look at who your parents are, how you were raised, and make decisions for yourself.
It is at this point where the ability to help these kids arises. I am not a very compassionate person by nature, it would seem self-evident to me that is better to reject a culture of violence, crime, self-abuse, and underachieving for the alternative. Many people do, many people choose to continue the cycle of poverty and crime.
I don't believe in today's society even kids from the worst family in the worst ghetto are cut off from positive messages, even if is just TV, or other kids in the 'hood that are trying to make it out.
It would really help if the media and parts of society didn't glorify the culture of violence, ill-gotten gain, puffery, and thuggery. Sadly it seems to sell, that is the free market for you.
At any rate, I hear what you are saying. Your points are very reasonable.
No, he's not. You cherry picked 4 articles spanning large segments of time, yet Whites are assaulted, raped, and murdered by blacks every hour in America. Does racial crime perpetrated by Whites against other groups happen? Yes, but it is very rare and certainly when it's calculated percentage wise it probably doesn't come close, and that's without the outright skewing of statistics (by distorting who gets counted in the victim and perpetrator categories, which do not match up even in their own database) by the FBI nationwide hate crime database.
Fortunately most black crime is directed toward your own. No wonder the black "community" is so transient, so 'in-the-moment' and doesn't look forward to saving for the future, creating things, doing real work, investing time and money into itself, starting businesses and so forth...How could you? How could you invest (time, money, effort, whatever) in the future good when you're so uncertain (justifiably so) that your good works and your efforts will be wasted?
Perhaps this is not my realm, but I would rather be a black man living in 1960 than a young black man living today. Wouldn't you? The odd thing is is that it is now black people oppressing their own these days. It certainly isn't Whites or Asians, or the vast majority of Hispanics.
While we're worried about the government and taxation chipping away at our hard work and creative efforts, the black community is worried about their works being destroyed by the hands of other black thugs (hundreds of flash-rob videos should give you a glimpse of this) and of not even being appreciated by the very people you're trying to benefit. Screw hard-work, education, starting businesses, and cleaning up the place! All most of you want is a check! Isn't that the mantra of today?
You guys are your own worst enemies and nothing will improve until that is admitted by a solid plurality within your community, not just a few righteous men and women who dare speak their minds knowing full well that they'll just be shunned for it by their own.
No, he's not. You cherry picked 4 articles spanning large segments of time, yet Whites are assaulted, raped, and murdered by blacks every hour in America. Does racial crime perpetrated by Whites against other groups happen? Yes, but it is very rare and certainly when it's calculated percentage wise it probably doesn't come close, and that's without the outright skewing of statistics (by distorting who gets counted in the victim and perpetrator categories, which do not match up even in their own database) by the FBI nationwide hate crime database.
Fortunately most black crime is directed toward your own. No wonder the black "community" is so transient, so 'in-the-moment' and doesn't look forward to saving for the future, creating things, doing real work, investing time and money into itself, starting businesses and so forth...How could you? How could you invest (time, money, effort, whatever) in the future good when you're so uncertain (justifiably so) that your good works and your efforts will be wasted?
Perhaps this is not my realm, but I would rather be a black man living in 1960 than a young black man living today. Wouldn't you? The odd thing is is that it is now black people oppressing their own these days. It certainly isn't Whites or Asians, or the vast majority of Hispanics.
While we're worried about the government and taxation chipping away at our hard work and creative efforts, the black community is worried about their works being destroyed by the hands of other black thugs (hundreds of flash-rob videos should give you a glimpse of this) and of not even being appreciated by the very people you're trying to benefit. Screw hard-work, education, starting businesses, and cleaning up the place! All most of you want is a check! Isn't that the mantra of today?
You guys are your own worst enemies and nothing will improve until that is admitted by a solid plurality within your community, not just a few righteous men and women who dare speak their minds knowing full well that they'll just be shunned for it by their own.
Your posting is disturbing on too many levels to go into here. But this black WOman certainly would not rather be a black person in 1960 rather than a black person today. I have taken a liking to being able to vote, patronize any establishment I darn well please, being able to send my children (when I have them) to any school I want, and having other civil liberties just like any other human being. You know, little things that. You seriously need to educate yourself if you believe being black in 1960 would be better than being black today. But, as you stated, this is not your realm.
Your over-generalization of the black "community" coupled with your blatant ignorance and bigotry ("all most of you want is a check" -- how lovely) are indicative that your knowledge of black people is severely limited. How unfortunate that we still have to deal with people with such a narrow-minded view of who we are.
Your posting is disturbing on too many levels to go into here. But this black WOman certainly would not rather be a black person in 1960 rather than a black person today. I have taken a liking to being able to vote, patronize any establishment I darn well please, being able to send my children (when I have them) to any school I want, and having other civil liberties just like any other human being. You know, little things that. You seriously need to educate yourself if you believe being black in 1960 would be better than being black today. But, as you stated, this is not your realm.
Your over-generalization of the black "community" coupled with your blatant ignorance and bigotry ("all most of you want is a check" -- how lovely) are indicative that your knowledge of black people is severely limited. How unfortunate that we still have to deal with people with such a narrow-minded view of who we are.
Actually some of us are getting quite annoyed with you being able to go anywhere you want.
We're starting to "notice" all the flash-robs happening across the country. We're starting to notice all the black biker weeks and black beech weeks and Orange Crushes happening during the spring and summer and the chaos they create. We're starting to notice the disproportionate murder rate, the rapes, the random assaults (to cherry pick an incident lets say the kid who got beat in Baltimore on St. Patrick's Day) and the phenomenon happening at Wal-Marts at midnight on the first of every month.
Weird huh? Weird that people are actually noticing all these things despite the media cover up. Shall we discuss why your schools are failing despite receiving extra funding and also while being led by black administrators and city governments? How can we explain that? Surely it's the fault of "The White Man"
Actually I'm quite open minded. I too was a naive liberal for almost a decade...that is until I got a home and a family to protect. I Wonder why it is that I don't live in the NE side of Baltimore or send my kids to a violent, failing school. I wonder why I have 3 guns in the home and why I give my wife lessons on how to use them. I'll tell ya what, it's not White people I'm worried about assaulting, raping, killing, etc. my family.
Nobody is making excuses for them. It just comes down to what you said, that basically these individuals can't be helped. Well if you feel that way, then why keep complaining? You obviously feel as though things will never change, so what is your ongoing rhetoric going to accomplish?
If Baltimore is a place you enjoy, then you should be prepared to know that these type of individuals live there (as well as other parts of the country). If you don't like it, do something about it, but if you want to change it, help fix the problem.
I NEVER said these people can't be helped. Just the opposite - I expect them to help themselves. That's it. You keep saying that they do what they do because they don't know any better and I'm calling you on it and saying nonsense. They don't really have to look that far to see that not everyone lives the way they do. They have to make the CHOICE not break the law - to live like responsible citizens.
By you saying it's somehow (even partially, remotely) my fault - that I don't have the right to complain because I'm not doing something to 'fix' the problem, then you're just enabling the problem more. It just further shifts responsibility from their laps to mine. And it's WRONG. It's demoralizing on so many levels. By making the implication that they do what they do because folks aren't helping them enough just implies that they can't get ahead on their own - that their standards are so low they couldn't possibly make it without help. It's sick and it's absurd.
I will continue to enjoy Baltimore, but I will never be one of those people who says 'oh, that's just Baltimore'. I will always be heartbroken over the fact that a significant portion of its population gave up on itself long before I ever gave up on them.
]I NEVER said these people can't be helped.[/b] Just the opposite - I expect them to help themselves. That's it. You keep saying that they do what they do because they don't know any better and I'm calling you on it and saying nonsense. They don't really have to look that far to see that not everyone lives the way they do. They have to make the CHOICE not break the law - to live like responsible citizens.
Really? This is what you said:
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This attitude that someone else needs to swoop in and 'help' them make better choices is well-intentioned, but I think we've seen over and over again that it simply doesn't work.
So if that doesn't work then what is your idea of helping them?
You again are making the assumption that they are looking around to see what other people are doing. All I'm saying is, there are some (not ALL) that simply do not see anything outside of the people they associate with. They don't watch the news, don't interact with people outside their neighborhood and don't do things that you would expect them to.
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Originally Posted by KatSRVA
By you saying it's somehow (even partially, remotely) my fault - that I don't have the right to complain because I'm not doing something to 'fix' the problem, then you're just enabling the problem more. It just further shifts responsibility from their laps to mine. And it's WRONG. It's demoralizing on so many levels. By making the implication that they do what they do because folks aren't helping them enough just implies that they can't get ahead on their own - that their standards are so low they couldn't possibly make it without help. It's sick and it's absurd.
I never at any point said it was your fault or anyone else. You are selectively reading what you want. Here is what I said, when I responded to you:
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Should these men take responsibility for their actions? 100% yes, never said they shouldn't.
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Originally Posted by KatSRVA
I will continue to enjoy Baltimore, but I will never be one of those people who says 'oh, that's just Baltimore'. I will always be heartbroken over the fact that a significant portion of its population gave up on itself long before I ever gave up on them.
That's where we are in society. It happens everywhere.
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