Remember How Great California Was? (Palo Alto, Laguna: lawyers, best school, activities)

[Independentthinking]

Originally Posted by nmnita

Public and private industry are not the same and should not be treated the same. As for the educational system, of course there is plenty of blame to go around, but my views are still the same: Kids raised right, with caring families will learn and achieve just fine. With no encouragement from home they will fail most likely. This is not the place of the educators to assume a good education with no support from home. A teacher can do just so much. I do agree with you some administrators are over paid. We have a good example of over paying right here. One of our school districts just increased the pay for starting teachers by $300 a month. And guess what? It was one of the most liberal districts in the area.

'There is no one cause for the falling reputation of a district or state. And, I still maintain the schools, overall in CA were not rated that highly when I was in school or my kids. I don't know about the years after that compared to now. We were lucky, our kids were in very good districts. Districts that still are rated high.

Well, we can agree to disagree on this one then. I don't buy for a minute that you can't apply business principals to how public schools are run. The whole notion that it can't work is simply bandied about by media and people with a government first mindset so they can have a blank check with taxpayer money. CA schools have gotten considerably worst. And I've already commented a few pages back how most kids I grew up with didn't have all the parental supervision and most of us have certainly been successful enough. With the COL as high as it is in CA, that's simply a pipe dream. Let alone, most parents would not understand things like common core and the like and would be of little use to their children (nor can they afford tutors). I hardly think CA parents are all that different from the rest of the country so what would be your reasoning on why other states outperform CA schools? And if all you're going to do is point to money and class size, we can just skip it as there are plenty of countries that spend less and have similar class sizes that achieve far greater results.

Admittedly, the saddest part is how people always try to make excuses instead of look at the results, understand it's not acceptable, and look to change this broken system. Instead, it's the political BS and the "don't touch those teachers unions". The whole thing just makes me want to vomit.

[CA4Now]

Originally Posted by Independentthinking

I don't buy for a minute that you can't apply business principals to how public schools are run.

Business principles can't be applied to public education because the performance of the product (the student) cannot be measured with validity. The student enters school and continues throughout his or her education with too many factors that cannot be controlled or measured -- parental influence, income, academic ability, exposure to culture, discipline, etc.

I hardly think CA parents are all that different from the rest of the country so what would be your reasoning on why other states outperform CA schools?

Other states spend more money per pupil. Scroll back.

And if all you're going to do is point to money and class size, we can just skip it as there are plenty of countries that spend less and have similar class sizes that achieve far greater results.

We tried class size reduction in the 1990s, when grades K-3 had classroom sizes reduced to 20 students. (I don't know how old you are, but my kids were in elementary and middle school then.) After several years, studies showed that it did not benefit the students. Apparently it made the students less independent and more reliant on the teacher helping each student separately. When those students got to the higher grades, they could not work without individual direction. Also, the state budget crisis made sure that any possibility of change in regard to class size would not be attempted.

[nmnita]

Originally Posted by Independentthinking

Well, we can agree to disagree on this one then. I don't buy for a minute that you can't apply business principals to how public schools are run. The whole notion that it can't work is simply bandied about by media and people with a government first mindset so they can have a blank check with taxpayer money. CA schools have gotten considerably worst. And I've already commented a few pages back how most kids I grew up with didn't have all the parental supervision and most of us have certainly been successful enough. With the COL as high as it is in CA, that's simply a pipe dream. Let alone, most parents would not understand things like common core and the like and would be of little use to their children (nor can they afford tutors). I hardly think CA parents are all that different from the rest of the country so what would be your reasoning on why other states outperform CA schools? And if all you're going to do is point to money and class size, we can just skip it as there are plenty of countries that spend less and have similar class sizes that achieve far greater results.

Admittedly, the saddest part is how people always try to make excuses instead of look at the results, understand it's not acceptable, and look to change this broken system. Instead, it's the political BS and the "don't touch those teachers unions". The whole thing just makes me want to vomit.

Yes, agree to disagree on this one,but don't get my wrong, I am certainly not in anyway pro teacher's unions. I just think the problem goes deeper than to blame any one group, not to mention schools overall are not that great, regardless of the state. That is why more people all the time are home schooling or sending kids to charter schools. I also remember when class sizes ran about 30 kids. Now, that is unheard of. Not to mention we had art classes, PE and music. Now those programs in many schools have been discontinued.

[Independentthinking]

Originally Posted by nmnita

Yes, agree to disagree on this one,but don't get my wrong, I am certainly not in anyway pro teacher's unions. I just think the problem goes deeper than to blame any one group, not to mention schools overall are not that great, regardless of the state. That is why more people all the time are home schooling or sending kids to charter schools. I also remember when class sizes ran about 30 kids. Now, that is unheard of. Not to mention we had art classes, PE and music. Now those programs in many schools have been discontinued.

Fair enough, thanks.

[2sleepy]

Originally Posted by phantompilot

I agree the system is corrupt and dysfunctional but the cost of the administrators has nothing to do with what is going on in the classrooms. The truth is we have bad students and bad parents, and they don't perform well because of a constellation of factors...whether its defective parenting/culture/language deficits/poverty/whatever.

The teachers are not less dedicated or educated or passionate. The teachers also don't select the curriculum which is mandated by the state.

The politics that have infested the school system are a detriment to the educational mission, but that is because the system is managed by communists and leftists....very dangerous people to be in control of the CONTENT of what is pushed on impressionable young minds.

The system is neither corrupt nor dysfunctional. What happened to the California school system is the result of prop 13. The state never made up for the money the schools lost through it. Lack of school funding remains an issue in California's schools. Look at the best schools in the US and almost all of them spend more per pupil than California.

And there is no 'leftist content' pushed on children, nor are there any communists running the system, that just sounds delusional

[Ruth4Truth]

Originally Posted by phantompilot

The politics that have infested the school system are a detriment to the educational mission, but that is because the system is managed by communists and leftists....very dangerous people to be in control of the CONTENT of what is pushed on impressionable young minds.

Yes, "See Spot Run" is outrageously subversive. Could you give us some examples of the dangerous content being pushed on impressionable young minds? Let's see...it wouldn't be the math or science curricula. Probably not literature, either, unless you count Shakespeare's A Midsummer Night's Dream, which is kind of wild. Nutrition and the four food groups? No. Let's see, what else is there... Are you talking about HS American History and Civics? World Geography? Could you give us examples of specific lessons or textbook passages you found to be objectionable?

[2sleepy]

Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth

Yes, "See Spot Run" is outrageously subversive. Could you give us some examples of the dangerous content being pushed on impressionable young minds? Let's see...it wouldn't be the math or science curricula. Probably not literature, either, unless you count Shakespeare's A Midsummer Night's Dream, which is kind of wild. Nutrition and the four food groups? No. Let's see, what else is there... Are you talking about HS American History and Civics? World Geography? Could you give us examples of specific lessons or textbook passages you found to be objectionable?

No kidding..here's a list of California approved textbooks, I swear I never saw so many communist manifestos in one place
Price List of Adopted Instructional Materials - Curriculum Frameworks & Instructional Materials (CA Dept of Education)

[JohnSoCal]

Originally Posted by 2sleepy

The system is neither corrupt nor dysfunctional. What happened to the California school system is the result of prop 13. The state never made up for the money the schools lost through it. Lack of school funding remains an issue in California's schools. Look at the best schools in the US and almost all of them spend more per pupil than California.

And there is no 'leftist content' pushed on children, nor are there any communists running the system, that just sounds delusional

You are wrong on all counts. You liberals think that shoving money will fix all problems.

[2sleepy]

Originally Posted by JohnSoCal

You are wrong on all counts. You liberals think that shoving money will fix all problems.

Your comment would be more useful if you supported it with some evidence

[Ruth4Truth]

Originally Posted by JohnSoCal

You are wrong on all counts. You liberals think that shoving money will fix all problems.

The CA public school system wasn't all that well funded before Prop 13, pal. What happens when you starve an already underfunded school system is that the large class sizes grow to a completely unwieldy size. And people wonder why teachers can't maintain order. But you're right in that better teacher training, less faddishness in the selection of methodologies (let's face it: "See And Say" does not help kids learn to read!), and more parent involvement don't require more money to get results. I don't know what to say to the people who say that offering better teacher pay would attract better talent, though, do you?