Coronavirus (artists, 2008, customer)

[Tulemutt]

Originally Posted by sav858

Yes primary but not the only important vector. Not sure why you keep trying to downplay or deny that. So many things are restricted or closed because of they are high touch surfaces (playgrounds, self-serve soda fountains etc..). So it's clearly an important factor and one that matters.

Originally Posted by goodheathen

Yeah. You get it. He doesn't and keeps trotting out a story of an old-school barber, as if they're all like that. Furthermore, unlike most commercial interiors, it's very easy to minimize customer contact with surfaces in barber shops and salons. Unlike for example restaurants.

You guys are hilarious. Once again: the decision to categorize isn’t made in consideration of minor, secondary vectors. It is made first based on primary vector presence. If you can’t solve for that, you don’t get an exception. Period.

Not sure why you keep trying to downplay or deny that.

As wac pointed out, initial reaction was to close everything and command disinfection of surfaces. As more was learned, the focus turned to airborne transmission as BY FAR the primary vector. This doesn’t mean stop disinfecting surfaces. It means: if you can’t solve the BY FAR primary vector issue - you got nothing special to set you apart.

“Old school barber”? Lmfao. Tell me how “new school barbers” do different than what I described. They disinfect styling TOOLS. Period. They don’t clean their shops like a hospital operating room. They don’t “scrub” like operating room doctors and nurses. They don’t change smocks and suits for each customer. Etc.

Cut the crap.

[Tulemutt]

Originally Posted by sav858

Yes its lower by how much I do not know. Still seems to pose a risk.

Eh you can over clean/disinfect too much that could lead to superbugs too.

On this, we agree ...

[sav858]

Originally Posted by Tulemutt

You guys are hilarious. Once again: the decision to categorize isn’t made in consideration of minor, secondary vectors. It is made first based on primary vector presence. If you can’t solve for that, you don’t get an exception. Period.

Not sure why you keep trying to downplay or deny that.

As wac pointed out, initial reaction was to close everything and command disinfection of surfaces. As more was learned, the focus turned to airborne transmission as BY FAR the primary vector. This doesn’t mean stop disinfecting surfaces. It means: if you can’t solve the BY FAR primary vector issue - you got nothing special to set you apart.

“Old school barber”? Lmfao. Tell me how “new school barbers” do different than what I described. They disinfect styling TOOLS. Period. They don’t clean their shops like a hospital operating room. They don’t “scrub” like operating room doctors and nurses. They don’t change smocks and suits for each customer. Etc.

Cut the crap.

Never denied or downplayed it at all. I've agreed multiple times its the primary vector and recognize it's the primary determinant whether or not a business can open. I don't know how many more times I can say that before you finally get I am agreeing with you on that aspect. But again it's not the only factor that matters. I'm not sure why saying that bothers you so much.

[joosoon]

Originally Posted by looker009

Business will cut cost as fast as they possible can without it costing them profit.

Not necessarily. If public sentiment favors an extra level of cleanliness, it wouldn't make sense to cost cut in that area if the difference in overhead was trivial. Hotels for instance. I know people who were cleaning their hotel rooms before covid was a thing. If it can be used as a selling feature, it might be worth keeping. Especially if it's something the competition isn't doing as well or at all. I agree with you that major impositions like capacity limits won't stick voluntarily after covid, but some things might.

[looker009]

Originally Posted by joosoon

Not necessarily. If public sentiment favors an extra level of cleanliness, it wouldn't make sense to cost cut in that area if the difference in overhead was trivial. Hotels for instance. I know people who were cleaning their hotel rooms before covid was a thing. If it can be used as a selling feature, it might be worth keeping. Especially if it's something the competition isn't doing as well or at all. I agree with you that major impositions like capacity limits won't stick voluntarily after covid, but some things might.

My wife cleaned hotel room often herself if she thought it wasn't cleaned enough(mainly happened at motel). However i am not seeing it staying for long term. It cost business too much and people have short term memory. You open bars /restaurant today fully even in state like California and New York and see how fast they get full. Once vaccine is readily available and news is no longer talking about it daily, public will quickly forget about it. Keeping cleaning at high standard means extra staff which result in much higher overhead cost. No way most business will be willing to keep that going.

[tikkasf]

from SF Chronicle


https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/...s-15573648.php

[Tulemutt]

Originally Posted by sav858

Never denied or downplayed it at all. I've agreed multiple times its the primary vector and recognize it's the primary determinant whether or not a business can open. I don't know how many more times I can say that before you finally get I am agreeing with you on that aspect. But again it's not the only factor that matters. I'm not sure why saying that bothers you so much.

I was ribbing at your own repetitive rhetorical: “Not sure why you keep trying to downplay or deny that” ... Just as I will now with: “ I'm not sure why saying that bothers you so much”

Why does it (apparently) bother you so much that I point out: the primary factor is the controlling factor... ?

It doesn’t matter how clean the scissors and combs are kept - if airborne transmission isn’t addressed, sav. And you know that. So why do YOU keep harping on clean utensils as if they compensate for air quality?

The hair care professions are NOT any more sanitary than a number of other everyday businesses - as you and others have proposed. Restaurants, grocery stores and plumbers all answer to health departments strictly, for other examples.

[wac_432]

Originally Posted by citizensadvocate

Lots of hard to understand discrepancy on their actions. Thus I believe its all based on control and not logic.

Understand that our leaders are human, and there you go. There's just as many lazy do-nothing government flunkies as there are construction workers, plumbers, tech workers, etc. Plus, governing Californians is like herding cats.

I'm glad it's not my job.

That said, I'm not going to stop griping about schools and playgrounds until they're both open again.

Well, I'll stop griping about schools if there's a significant and sustained surge in states/areas with reopened schools. However, we're WAY past the 21-day mark for most school systems in the sun belt, where they opened fist, and--while there may be a slowing of the decline in cases, I'm not seeing a subsequent rise, like what we saw in June with the wave sparked by reopening (and, in my opinion, the newly-dominant G-variant of the virus being more infectious and less serious).

[sav858]

Originally Posted by Tulemutt

I was ribbing at your own repetitive rhetorical: “Not sure why you keep trying to downplay or deny that” ... Just as I will now with: “ I'm not sure why saying that bothers you so much”

Why does it (apparently) bother you so much that I point out: the primary factor is the controlling factor... ?

It doesn’t matter how clean the scissors and combs are kept - if airborne transmission isn’t addressed, sav. And you know that. So why do YOU keep harping on clean utensils as if they compensate for air quality?

The hair care professions are NOT any more sanitary than a number of other everyday businesses - as you and others have proposed. Restaurants, grocery stores and plumbers all answer to health departments strictly, for other examples.

It doesn't, I've agreed with you several times. It's really bizarre that you keep repeating as you're only arguing with yourself about that at this point.

Considering it's one of the vectors of transmission it certainly does matter. Again part of the reason why cleaning and disinfecting is recommended and required now for pretty much everywhere. Why are they doing it if it supposedly doesn't matter? And isn't airborne transmission addressed with masks?

Disagree. Hair care professionals are licensed and go through more rigorous training, which includes health and sanitization, than your average restaurant and grocery store workers. Do Salons/Barbershops not answer to health departments too?

[citizensadvocate]

Originally Posted by wac_432

Understand that our leaders are human, and there you go. There's just as many lazy do-nothing government flunkies as there are construction workers, plumbers, tech workers, etc. Plus, governing Californians is like herding cats.

I'm glad it's not my job.

That said, I'm not going to stop griping about schools and playgrounds until they're both open again.

Well, I'll stop griping about schools if there's a significant and sustained surge in states/areas with reopened schools. However, we're WAY past the 21-day mark for most school systems in the sun belt, where they opened fist, and--while there may be a slowing of the decline in cases, I'm not seeing a subsequent rise, like what we saw in June with the wave sparked by reopening (and, in my opinion, the newly-dominant G-variant of the virus being more infectious and less serious).

I be curious how many are moving to states with more sane lobbyists. Our bought and paid for leaders generally listen and go along with lobbyists and advisors or other powerful special interests.
So they are merely poppets or tip of the iceberg. We just have to know who or what hand is holding them aka brainwashing/arm twisting them. Recalling a leader would just lead to having another poppet in the office as replacement which would do no good as the same thing would occur depending on what special interest controls them. And likely to remain the same one party rule as always.

For schools the biggest difficulty is compulsory attendance, funding, as well as necessary staff to run schools. Meaning if schools were to open fully students, teachers, and other support staff may have no choice but to go to school due to state funding rules, the rules that once strictly required students to be in their seat for the school to receive funding, which is why schools were so insisting student attend in person as much as possible that is until COVID19 blew in. Others are just overstepping. I am glad though in my area playground closures are merely advisory, families still use it one at a time.