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But it's not really being suppressed. Anglos in Quebec have all the institutions and public (and even private) services they need in order for their families to remain anglo. The problem is that they have to convince their people - especially the young ones - to stop moving away because they don't like having to deal with stuff in French everyday when they are out and about.
Being only allowed to have 11 people in an English speaking business=suppression. Only 50 people is suppression too, but it's far less bad than 11. It's a manageable sort of suppression that can maybe be worked around to some extent. 11 people can't, that's just too damn low.
It's not that they "don't like having to deal with stuff in French". It's that they don't like being treated like they're an unwanted intrusion, a cultural threat, etc. Many Anglos I'm sure like being in a bilingual society and would prefer it to being in an English-only part of Canada, they just wish they weren't tread upon by government policies as they currently are.
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Originally Posted by BruSan
You are wasting reasoned discussion and typing time at the keyboard.
This is probably true.....sigh.
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Originally Posted by BruSan
Quebecer's involvement will never be more than it is now and may even get less with time as they become even more insular, being heady on their new-found power at home.
Witness whole enclaves of them in the U.S. in places such as Florida, Texas, Mexico and other snowbird locations, attempting to cluster together and force their language compliance on neighbourhoods in a foreign host country, if you really need further proof of their arrogance and isolationist attitudes.
Quebecois actually expect people in the USA and other places down south to speak French as well? Like in Hollywood, Florida or wherever their enclaves are, they actually expect the local staff to speak French?
I used to think that way and was a strong supporter of anglo rights in Quebec (much like Redrum - I was big on all language and other minority rights in Canada) until I got to know the anglo community of Quebec better. This started before I moved to Quebec BTW, and I got to know it even better after moving here.
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While a good chunk of the community is as you describe, there is a good chunk that is anglo-hegemonist and has the mentality that "we speak English and live in North America - why should WE have to learn and use someone else's language?". As I have mentioned before, this second group declined dramatically starting in the 1970s but lately I have a sense that it might be on the upswing again. And this might be why the language issue is hot again after being pretty relaxed for quite a few years.
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Just half an hour ago over the lunch hour I was in a store operated by a national chain. In a part of Gatineau that is probably about 93% francophone. All of the staff were speaking in English amongst themselves, and when I spoke to them in French a few of them made a grimace at me. Although they did eventually serve me in French and I simply shrugged it off, I don't think a customer should be made to feel like a jerk for addressing service staff in the language of 90+% of the population in the immediate vicinity.
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Stuff like this just doesn't happen in most places around the world. But as long as it happens fairly regularly in parts of Quebec, the language issue will never go away and you'll get people like Pauline Marois who will want to toughen things up.
I used to be a big supporter of Quebecois "language rights" before I actually started talking to some of the Quebecois nationalists on the internet and seeing what they had to say.
I think Franco-hegemony would outweigh Anglo-hegemony by far, ie "we speak French and live in Quebec--why should WE have to learn and use someone else's language?". That sort of Anglo hegemony you describe would be much more prevalent in bilingual regions of Ontario and New Brunswick but in Quebec, from what I've seen in statistics about bilingualism and the attitudes I've seen expressed, the linguistic exclusivity issue is much more a Franco thing.
If you want to complain about Anglos in bilingual parts of Ontario and NB not learning French enough, that I would totally agree with. But Anglos in Quebec are pretty good with it (the only possible exception being in the region of Pontiac)
The vast majority of Quebec Anglos are bilingual. The percentage of unilingual people in the Montreal area is far higher among Francophones than Anglophones.
Also the reason the language issue is on the table again is because the PQ are desperate to exploit people's base bigotry for votes, when they have nothing else of substance to bring to the table. If all else fails, exploit anti-Anglo sentiments to get elected! I really doubt there's a trend of arrogant, abrasive Anglos on the upswing in Quebec.
You say that the existence of Anglo bigotry is a reason spurring on the continuing existence of anti-Anglo laws, but then I could say that the exsistence of far greater Franco bigotry in Quebec would justify pro-Anglo laws. If we're going to make the laws based on combatting discrimination I have a feeling they'd be very, very different.
Also, about the employees you mentioned seeing today, are you sure they weren't just pissed off because you interrupted their conversation so they'd have to serve you? Are you sure it had anything to do with your speaking French?
Last edited by Redrum237; 10-02-2012 at 12:19 PM..
On this it will be interesting to see the 2011 census data on language that I think will be coming out in December of this year. My sense is that there might be an increase in the total anglo population and also in the unilingual anglo population in Quebec. Especially in the Montreal area, the Outaouais, the Laurentians and other parts of SW Quebec.
I may be wrong but we shall see.
To address this earlier post which I'd never addressed and just recalled....
What exactly makes you think there'd be a reversal of decades-old trends and a substantial increase in the Anglo population?
Stuff like this just doesn't happen in most places around the world. But as long as it happens fairly regularly in parts of Quebec, the language issue will never go away and you'll get people like Pauline Marois who will want to toughen things up.
We'll agree to disagree as usual but i dont see any long term Anglos in Quebec having your perceived attitude of we dont have to speak French and we should expect service only in English, i'm sure there are some with that attitude but i hardly think there are that many to constitute stereotyping an entire culture on the actions of a few. Its like seeing those transit workers have their rampage on the English guy and then judging all Francophones solely on that incident.
As for Marois toughening up Bill101? What do you suppose that will accomplish?
Quebecer's involvement will never be more than it is now and may even get less with time as they become even more insular, being heady on their new-found power at home.
Witness whole enclaves of them in the U.S. in places such as Florida, Texas, Mexico and other snowbird locations, attempting to cluster together and force their language compliance on neighbourhoods in a foreign host country, if you really need further proof of their arrogance and isolationist attitudes.
I hadn't come back to the Canada forum for a while, now I remember why. The bolded is a xenophobic statement if I ever read one.
Apart from not making much sense ("force their language compliance"?? there are Quebecers in Texas??), it's just a fact of life that humans generally feel more comfortable with people who share the same language and cultural references. That's a cornerstone of immigration and tourism all around the world. There's nothing special about Quebecers in that regard.
As for the OP's question, nobody knows if anything's going to happen at all. The PQ controls the agenda, not the actual decisions -- anything they do needs to be sanctioned by one of the other 2 big parties (CAQ or Liberals). So we'll either get a lot of political games within the next few months, or nothing's going to get done at all.
For the record, I think those proposed changes for bill 101 regarding the workplace are stupid. My grandfather worked from roughly 1945-1980 at a Simmons mattress factory in Montreal and when he started, nobody was allowed to speak French even if 99% of the workers were French (pretty much like jambo's dairy shop I guess). That situation started to change with the big social changes of the early 1960s in Quebec, and when Bill 101 was enacted, the job was mostly done, but it was a political statement that had to be made. But now? What's the statement? I usually agree with Acajack, but... is this thing about Italian restaurants?
When i started at the plant around 1977 the office was 50/50 French/English the plant was 75% french 25% English and people spoke whatever language they wanted,when i left 30+ years later the office is now 100% Francophone and the plant almost entirely Francophone except 5 Anglos,now that i've retired theres only 4 Anglos,people still speak whatever language they want.
When i started at the plant around 1977 the office was 50/50 French/English the plant was 75% french 25% English and people spoke whatever language they wanted,when i left 30+ years later the office is now 100% Francophone and the plant almost entirely Francophone except 5 Anglos,now that i've retired theres only 4 Anglos,people still speak whatever language they want.
So why is it that when Anglos have this attitude it's suddenly a major human rights violation and the laws must be changed to stop them, but when Francos have this attitude it's totally acceptible?
These people don't seem rude or abrasive from the recording. They may be disadvantaging themselves but I don't see how they're really hurting anyone else. If they want to live an insular English-only existence, so what? Who are they hurting? How are they harming French in Quebec? They said they speak a tiny bit of French and I'm sure they'd try if they had to, when buying something at a store or whatever other situation, but how are they being rude or abrasive simply by not being fluent in French? Why hold them to this standard but not accuse Montreal's unilingual Francophones of harming the Anglo community?
This hardly seems like grounds for harsher language laws to me.
Last edited by Redrum237; 10-02-2012 at 01:03 PM..
This hardly seems like grounds for harsher language laws to me.
I am not calling for harsher language laws - I am just explaining the reasons why they might be in the offing.
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