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I don't know why you feel the need to keep underscoring that Canada was a 'part' of the British Army as if to prove a point.. The Australians and many other current day Commonwealth nations or formerly British Commonwealth nations were of the same status.. At the end of the day however, these young men, boys really fought and many gave up their lives and they associated very much with the soil they were born and raised and grew up in and so they CLOSELY identified with that land including Canada. In the case of CANADIAN soldiers, many died far from home across an ocean - they weren't fighting on Canadian soil protecting Canada - they fought and died for foreign countries including your own so....... I think some respect afforded for their sacrifices and where they were from would score you some major points in here! if you want to not be considered a troll trying to stir the pot vs someone genuinely interested in Canada, its history, various nations, cultures and values stop trying to get in all these little digs and quite frankly being dismissive of the land. Normally the reaction to such people is to get a BIG FINGER as a result - that is not Canadian, its human nature and rightfully so... right!!??
I respect each Canadian soldier who I believe was fighting for a just cause against a regime that destroyed much of my own county materially but also split our families apart. Some of our men believed the Aryan propaganda and joined the Nazis. But in this conflict Canadians were simple part of the British Army. It is not my opinion, but a ct. A fact that Canadians should be very proud of. In 1940 after the astonishing fall of France (to everyone's amazement) Canada stood by Britain as Britain most powerful ally. Canada produced a an amazing amount of arms and equipment for the allied (just) cause. I think this is something that ever Canadian should be duly proud of and never forget. But it is also important to remember that Canada was loyal to Britain and remained part of the British armed forces. Canada had troops stationed in Singapore, Africa, and England, all poised to defend against an attack by the Axis powers. Meanwhile the US were (ironically) dedicated to an isolationist policy and believed that peace and negotiation could lead to and prosperous solution to the world's conflict.I believe that the mistake of US neutrality convinced the Americans that they had being neutral as such a great power allowed evil regimes ti flourish. Since then, the US has rejected neutrality and done its best t prevent another situation like WW2. So Fuson2, I do not think there is anything to be ashamed of in being Canadian. Although Canadians and Americans appear almost identical (from my perspective) together you form perhaps the greatest duo the world has ever seen. It is a shame to see Canadians exhibiting the mythical "inferiority complex" just as it is as shame to see Americans bickering with Canadians about trivial matters. Together you have built a continent that is truly the envy of the world.
I respect each Canadian soldier who I believe was fighting for a just cause against a regime that destroyed muych of my own county materially but also aplit our families apart. But in this conflict Canadians were simple part of the British Army. It is not my opinion, but a ct. A fact that Canadians should bde very proud of. In 1940 after the astonishing fall of France (to everyone's amazement) Canada stood by Britain as Britian most powerful ally. Canada produced a an amazing amount of arms and equipment for the allied (just) cause. I think this is something that ever Canadian should be duly proud of and never forget. But it is also important to remember that Canada was loyal to Britain and remained part of the British armed forces. Canada had troops stationed in Singapore, Africa, and England, all poised to defend against an attack by the Axis powers. Meanwhile the US were (ironically) dedicated to an isolationist policy and believed that peace and negotiation could lead to and prosperous solution to the world's conflict. So Fuson2, I do not think there is anything to be ashamed of in being Canadian. Although Canadians and Americans appear almost identical (from my perspective) together you form perhaps the greatest duo the world has ever seen. It is a shame to see Canadians exhibiting the mythical "inferiority complex" just as it is as shame to see Americans bickering with Canadians about trivial matters. Together you have built a continent that is truly the envy of the world.
Great post. I agree that the Canadians served king country more than amply (especially during wWI). The extra manpower and industrial capacity that the Canadian's contributed was essential to keeping the Empire in tact.
Remember that Canada was very much the British Empire, and Canadians should be proud of that.
Some Canadian recruitment posters for the history buffs:
I don't know why you feel the need to keep underscoring that Canada was a 'part' of the British Army as if to prove a point.. The Australians and many other current day Commonwealth nations or formerly British Commonwealth nations were of the same status.. At the end of the day however, these young men, boys really fought and many gave up their lives and they associated very much with the soil they were born and raised and grew up in and so they CLOSELY identified with that land including Canada. In the case of CANADIAN soldiers, many died far from home across an ocean - they weren't fighting on Canadian soil protecting Canada - they fought and died for foreign countries including your own so....... I think some respect afforded for their sacrifices and where they were from would score you some major points in here! if you want to not be considered a troll trying to stir the pot vs someone genuinely interested in Canada, its history, various nations, cultures and values stop trying to get in all these little digs and quite frankly being dismissive of the land. Normally the reaction to such people is to get a BIG FINGER as a result - that is not Canadian, its human nature and rightfully so... right!!??
Fusion, I don' think anyone is trying to disrespect Canadian soldiers. We are paying great respect to these men and I believe that their sacrifices were just. But in WWI for example, about 80% of the CEF (Canadian Expeditionary Force) was born in Britain.The fact is still that they were in a common British army of the Empire. English Canadians who had roots going back to the great migration *1815-60's) had much less interest in joining the war, similar to the Americans. French Canadians had the least support, and Henri Bourassa likened the war to just another imperial conflict that had nothing to offer the Canadien (French Canadians) but dead young men. Just something to think about. I am not Canadian, but I am proud of the men who fought for their king, flag, and Empire. There is nothing to be ashamed of.
I also don't think Oranje is in anyway disrespected Canadian troops, he is just recounting the history of the liberation of the Nethrlands. What he writes is quite true. The Netherlands were not (wholly) l iberated until the Germans had essentially surrendered in Spring 1945. The troops who actually tried to liberate the Netherlands in 1944 were an ambitious and elite group of Americans of the 101st and 81st airborne, the 1st British Airborne, and the free Polish 1st parachute brigade, supported by US Sherman tanks largely driven by British crews. "Operation Market" gerden was Montgomery's master plan that unfortunately fell just a hair short of it's objectives despite the heroic efforts of the British 1st Airborne. Had it succeeded, WWII could have ended about 8 months earlier. I have nothing but great respect for the Canadian and Empire troops, but when they liberated the Netherlands the Germans and their Dutch collaborators had essentially ceased fighting. Any group of soldiers could have been ordered to liberate the Netherlands but the troops chosen to do it were mainly Canadian. The Americans, British, French, and the remnants of the Polish tended to deal with Germany, Northern Italy, and Austria. British paratroopers quickly freed Denmark and Greece while the Norwegian resistance liberated themselves.
Support for the war effort in Quebec probably would have been higher had things been done differently early on. I believe the idea of an all-Francophone battalion for the First Contingent was nixed, and the 22nd Battalion was concession that was much too late.
I've researched the local war effort and early on the recruiting effort was quite exclusive - large numbers of Italians wanted to enlist, but were refused. Also expressing a desire to serve were Russians and members of the Chinese community, although both were few in number. Later on in the this changed as it became more difficult to secure recruits.
Also the CEF recruited many British Subjects who were (long-time) residents of the USA.
I respect each Canadian soldier who I believe was fighting for a just cause against a regime that destroyed much of my own county materially but also split our families apart. Some of our men believed the Aryan propaganda and joined the Nazis. But in this conflict Canadians were simple part of the British Army. It is not my opinion, but a ct. A fact that Canadians should be very proud of. In 1940 after the astonishing fall of France (to everyone's amazement) Canada stood by Britain as Britain most powerful ally. Canada produced a an amazing amount of arms and equipment for the allied (just) cause. I think this is something that ever Canadian should be duly proud of and never forget. But it is also important to remember that Canada was loyal to Britain and remained part of the British armed forces. Canada had troops stationed in Singapore, Africa, and England, all poised to defend against an attack by the Axis powers. Meanwhile the US were (ironically) dedicated to an isolationist policy and believed that peace and negotiation could lead to and prosperous solution to the world's conflict.I believe that the mistake of US neutrality convinced the Americans that they had being neutral as such a great power allowed evil regimes ti flourish. Since then, the US has rejected neutrality and done its best t prevent another situation like WW2. So Fuson2, I do not think there is anything to be ashamed of in being Canadian. Although Canadians and Americans appear almost identical (from my perspective) together you form perhaps the greatest duo the world has ever seen. It is a shame to see Canadians exhibiting the mythical "inferiority complex" just as it is as shame to see Americans bickering with Canadians about trivial matters. Together you have built a continent that is truly the envy of the world.
Oranje, I think you are a little bit mistaken about Canada in world war 2. You state that we were not an independent country yet and fought as part of the British military and that this is an absolute fact you are stating. I'm not sure where you heard this, but that is simply not true. The statute of Westminster, which passed well before world war 2, meant that Canada had fully independent foreign relations from the UK. Canada, in fact, made a point of declaring war on Germany separately from Britain, one day later, as a pointed act of soverignty. Canada also did work with British troops and there may have beent troop movements between the militaries, but it is not the case that Canada did not have an independently organized and operating military from Britain. The Canadian military was really quite powerful, with the world's thrid largest navy at the end of the war, and was separately organized. Canada was also treated like an equal and soverign allied power in the war, not like a part of Britain. Canada mostly won it's sovereignty through it's performance in WW1. By the time WW2 rolled around it was treated like, and was fully organized as, an independent power.
Suggest you study the Statute of Westminster 1931.
I could say more, but I won't. DNFTT, and all that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIMBAM
Oranje, I think you are a little bit mistaken about Canada in world war 2. You state that we were not an independent country yet and fought as part of the British military and that this is an absolute fact you are stating. I'm not sure where you heard this, but that is simply not true. The statute of Westminster, which passed well before world war 2, meant that Canada had fully independent foreign relations from the UK. Canada, in fact, made a point of declaring war on Germany separately from Britain, one day later, as a pointed act of soverignty. Canada also did work with British troops and there may have beent troop movements between the militarizes, but it is not the case that Canada did not have an independently organized and operating military from Britain. The Canadian military was really quite powerful, with the world's third largest navy at the end of the war, and was separately organized. Canada was also treated like an equal and soverign allied power in the war, not like a part of Britain. Canada mostly won it's sovereignty through it's performance in WW1. By the time WW2 rolled around it was treated like, and was fully organized as, an independent power.
These are both admirable wishes, but false. Canada was not treated as an independent power like the US, or France. Canada was treated as an autonomous part of the British Empire. Which is why the Canadians were fully equipped in British Gear and under the command of British over lordship. She was more independent than in WWI, no doubt, but still was no independent power, especially when it came to the military.
With all due respect, I think you are both succumbing to "American" ideas of independence and latching on to the "Statute of Westminster myth", that is the myth that Canada became a wholly independent power vis-avis the USA or France or Sweden in 1931. While Canada was becoming increasingly independent, the separation of the military from Britain's was not even close to complete. No, Canada remained very much a part of the British Empire until the 1950's. An increasingly autonomous part of the Empire, but part of the Empire nonetheless. This is why Canadian troops were stationed where the Brtish ordered them to be: whether in the Mediterranean (notably British Malta and British Gibraltar), British Singapore, British West Indies, Iceland, or a variety of other places.
Again, this why the Canadians in WWII were recruited under this flag:
For example, the British took charge of Canada's war plans and Canadians in both the army and air force were largely trained and supplied in Britain. Canadian equipment and outfitting was to use British design (hence the identical uniforms and armaments). Canada was very much an "autonomous" part of a larger empire. But as Britain ran low on funds and fought for desperately for it's survival, Canada turned to the US for it's military needs, and hasn't turned back since.
As with most things Canadian, the shift from bring a contingent of the British army to an autonomous and then fully independent army was a gradual shift. By WWII this shift had not yet completed. While the Canadian government legally had the political ability to not back up the British (and declare war on the British) the Canadian army by oath of loyalty had to support the Royal forces.
Here are two excellent books that are well worth reading on the subject of how the Canadian switched from being part of a larger Imperial force during WWII to developing it's own independence post the Korean-war.
Chartrand, Rene, and Ron Volstad. Canadian Forces in World War II. Oxford: Osprey, 2001.
Morton, Desmond. A Military History of Canada. Edmonton. : Hurtig, 1985.
over 131,000 airman from all commonwealth countries were trained in Canada.
the deliberate decision taken by Canada to use British designed equipment and why.
The role played by Canada's Navy assuming full charge of convoy duty through the north Atlantic.
And this little tid-bit I was not aware of at all:
"On 16 August 1940, King met with Roosevelt at the border town of Ogdensburg, New York. Through the Ogdensburg Agreement, they agreed to create the Permanent Joint Board on Defence, an organization that would plan joint defence of both countries and would continue to exist after the war. In the fall of 1940 a British defeat seemed so likely the joint board agreed to give the United States control of the Canadian military if Germany won in Europe. By the spring of 1941, as the military situation improved, Canada refused to accept American control of its forces if and when the United States entered the war.[26]" Hmmmmh.....wow.
over 131,000 airman from all commonwealth countries were trained in Canada.
the deliberate decision taken by Canada to use British designed equipment and why.
The role played by Canada's Navy assuming full charge of convoy duty through the north Atlantic.
And this little tid-bit I was not aware of at all:
"On 16 August 1940, King met with Roosevelt at the border town of Ogdensburg, New York. Through the Ogdensburg Agreement, they agreed to create the Permanent Joint Board on Defence, an organization that would plan joint defence of both countries and would continue to exist after the war. In the fall of 1940 a British defeat seemed so likely the joint board agreed to give the United States control of the Canadian military if Germany won in Europe. By the spring of 1941, as the military situation improved, Canada refused to accept American control of its forces if and when the United States entered the war.[26]" Hmmmmh.....wow.
Good points Brusan. AFAIK the Canadian Navy was actually fully independent unlike the army and air force. I may be mistaken though.
As your post alludes, Britain had come dangerously close to considering the war in Europe a lost cause once the French defense crumbled. In the case of defeat logically Canada would come under the influence of the US rather than Britain, and Britain was well aware of this. That did not mean outright annexation by any means, but it meant a defense pact similar to the one we have today which would replace the Canadian reliance on the British Empire/Commonwealth. Despite our crushing victory in WWII. both of our countries have entered into a similar defense pact seeing as it is in our best interest to defend a united North America, and facilitate trade between the two countries. It has been a remarkable boon to both the American and especially the Canadian economies.
Also Brusan, as you have also pointed out, much of Canada's decision to employ British ways of doing things was a matter of tradition. Remember that back in the 1940's, the US and Canada were not nearly as buddy-buddy as we are today. The US and Canada became much, much closer as the British Empire collapsed and Canada became a truly independent country with full control of it;s foreign affairs. Canada chose to forge ultra-strong links with the US which payed off handsomely for the Canadian economy. The incredible relationship between the US and Canada today is very much a product of cooperation during WWII and the post-war.
As you can see I am a bit of a Canadian history junkie!
As your post alludes, Britain had come dangerously close to considering the war in Europe a lost cause once the French defense crumbled. In the case of defeat logically Canada would come under the influence of the US rather than Britain, and Britain was well aware of this. That did not mean outright annexation by any means, but it meant a defense pact similar to the one we have today which would replace the Canadian reliance on the British Empire/Commonwealth. Despite our crushing victory in WWII.both of our countries have entered into a similar defense pact seeing as it is in our best interest to defend a united North America, and facilitate trade between the two countries. It has been a remarkable boon to both the American and especially the Canadian economies.
You Northern Americans are giving yourself way too much credit for your involvement in WW2. It was really Russia who did most of the work and who brought by far the most sacrifices. I don't mind a little history revision now and then but it is really Russia who deserves most credit for defeating the Nazis. We still greatly appreciate your endeavours obviously.
Russian flag over the Reichstag:
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