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It really occurred to me lately that race is really much less frequently mentioned in Canada, by politicians or the media. One more thing I appreciate about Canada.
I think people sharing the same langugue have a lot more in common that people who share the same skin color. Additionally what's race? How to categorize mixed people? Do we put them in the same basket pretending a Chinese/German mix is similar to a Nigeria/Spain mix? What confuses more is "white Latino vs non-white Latino" wow, does white matter or does Latino matter? I have no idea.
I am not even sure what is white. Most of the Arabs are white too, do they belong to the same people as Germans or Brits? Even China and Japan have white people in certain regions, are they the same as WASps?
Race is a horrible standard for measuring diversity.
Not to mention Pakis, Indians, etc. being lumped together with the Chinese, Japanese, Korean, etc.
I said 'racially diverse.' Please re-read my comment. There is this perception, particularly among Toronto boosters, that Toronto is the most diverse city in the world. And they purposefully use linguistic diversity because it makes Toronto look good. But there are many measures of diversity, including race, religion, sexual orientation, national ancestry (Whites in the U.S. are far more diverse in ancestry than Whites in Canada. That is a fact).
Language is not a far superior benchmark for cultural diversity. I'm from Latin American by descent and oftentimes the only thing that binds the hundreds of indigenous tribes in most South American countries is speaking Spanish.
When the colonial powers tried to integrate 'Native' peoples, the first thing they took away is their own language. So you now have thousands of tribes in Latin America who have kept everything - cuisine, religion, cultural mores, rituals, communal societal structures - but have lost their language. Are you demoting their cultural identity because they don't speak their own language?
Canadians often accuse the U.S. of only looking at race. Well, Canadians often only look at language, because that is the historical binary that has defined Canadian culture (English vs. French). But language is a faulty measure for vast swathes of the world.
So I refuse to concede that language is the 'be-all-and-end-all' of diverse. That's just a fairly blatant attempt to redefine diversity in terms that, once again, make Toronto look more diverse than it truly is.
Toronto/GTA is by pretty much every measure of diversity - diverse be it culturally, linguistically, ethnically, racially and percentage of Foreign Born.. One doesn't have to be a Toronto booster at all to simply state what is a fact. Yes, there are other cities that are extremely diverse but few are quite at the level of Toronto's diversity. The fact you would even begin to challenge that is absolutely nonsensical and makes it hard to take you seriously and just shows your obvious bias against it. Note i'm not stating this makes it superior, it just makes it more diverse than most.
Speaking as a gay person, I can also tell you Toronto has a MASSIVE gay population. A big clue is it has one of the largest pride festivities in the world. At any given time half of the Eaton Centre is gay.
Oh, the almighty GDP per capital - if you do believe in that magic number, then Detroit would be one of the best place to live, not just in North America, but among the entire developed world too
Don't be starting to hate on Detroit. For all the problems of the city, Metro Detroit has things going for it that other cities don't. I didn't want to live there any longer (too dull), but if I had to choose between suburban Detroit and suburban Toronto, I'd take Detroit.
Don't be starting to hate on Detroit. For all the problems of the city, Metro Detroit has things going for it that other cities don't. I didn't want to live there any longer (too dull), but if I had to choose between suburban Detroit and suburban Toronto, I'd take Detroit.
Is expressing the preference you just did even allowed on here? LOL
I notice on C v C that many Americans use racial colour as pretty much the only qualifier for diversity. Cultural and ethnic diversity is not as well regarded. To some of our American friends, doesn't matter if you're a Ukrainian or Dutch - you're lumped into the same bag of coal - White. I have a friend from B'dos and it Drives him CRAZY that people assume he is Jamaican just because he is dark skinned and from the Caribbean.
Yes, cultural and ethnic diversity IS regarded in parts of the US, historically. Those ethnic roots now might not be as strong as the same roots are in Canada, but that's because those groups settled in the US en masse decades before they did in Canada. Canadians seem to forget the huge number of immigrants the US welcomed in the late 19th/early 20th centuries. Between 1880 and 1914 alone, more than 20 million immigrants entered the US. Twenty million in under 35 years. So, of course ethnicity was regarded. It was an unavoidable fact. Large-scale European immigration to Canada, on the other hand - which wasn't nearly as large - didn't occur until after WWII, and mostly in the 50s and 60s. That's 60 or 70 years after mass European immigration to the U.S. Six or 7 decades from now, Canada will be a very different country, and ethnic ties that are strong now will be like what they currently are in the US.
The US is more preoccupied with race for the reasons already discussed. And, yes, as a first-gen Canadian-American of Scottish descent, it annoys me to always be referred to as "white." But, honestly, the preoccupation with ethnicity and the not-always-so-subtle competitions of cultural superiority in some Canadian cities (mostly in the Montreal-Windsor corridor) got on my nerves, too. I frequently heard what people of certain ethnicities/races said about people of other ethnicities/races. I could get more specific, but I won't. Suffice to say that a sense of us vs. them, though perhaps more subtle, is a fact in Canada, just as it is in the US. It was just a part of life growing up in Ontario/Montreal. That diversity creates tendencies to stereotype and misunderstand one another just as racial diversity does in the US.
Last edited by newdixiegirl; 05-27-2016 at 09:46 PM..
Don't be starting to hate on Detroit. For all the problems of the city, Metro Detroit has things going for it that other cities don't. I didn't want to live there any longer (too dull), but if I had to choose between suburban Detroit and suburban Toronto, I'd take Detroit.
Well suburban Detroit is a lot less dense than Toronto is. Toronto's burbs are some of the most dense in the anglo world. The two aren't really comparable. Suburban Detroit isn't the poor hellhole some make it out to be - not by a long shot, but generally I found it a lot more quiet than say Scarborough, North York or Etobicoke. There are literally 6 highrise condo's going up in my City Block here in Etobicoke beside Islington Station - you'd never see something like that in Warren or Livonia. Even the swaths of SFH's in suburban Toronto are more dense than typical American city including Detroit. It all depends on preference but certainly even places like Etobicoke are not what they were 20 years ago. All of Toronto and the GTA is growing heavily. I wouldn't say suburban Toronto is as exciting as Old Toronto - but it is more buzzing with activity than ever before and that continues yoy.
In comparative terms Detroit and its metro areas are simply stagnant compared to Toronto and its metro areas. For example, Suburban Detroit doesn't have a 5 billion dollar large scale LRT project being constructed that is 19 km with 15 underground stations plus 10 surface stations as what is happening along Eglinton right now. Such transit investments, especially when they are large scale and linked with other major mass transit lines are always a great thing for a city.
Toronto's changed a lot since the early 90's as i'm sure you're aware.
Yes, cultural and ethnic diversity IS regarded in parts of the US, historically. Those ethnic roots now might not be as strong as the same roots are in Canada, but that's because those groups settled in the US en masse decades before they did in Canada. Canadians seem to forget the huge number of immigrants the US welcomed in the late 19th/early 20th centuries. Between 1880 and 1914 alone, more than 20 million immigrants entered the US. Twenty million in under 35 years. So, of course ethnicity was regarded. It was an unavoidable fact. Large-scale European immigration to Canada, on the other hand - which wasn't nearly as large - didn't occur until after WWII, and mostly in the 50s and 60s. That's 60 or 70 years after mass European immigration to the U.S. Six or 7 decades from now, Canada will be a very different country, and ethnic ties that are strong now will be like what they currently are in the US.
The US is more preoccupied with race for the reasons already discussed. And, yes, as a first-gen Canadian-American of Scottish descent, it annoys me to always be referred to as "white." But, honestly, the preoccupation with ethnicity and the not-always-so-subtle competitions of cultural superiority in some Canadian cities (mostly in the Montreal-Windsor corridor) got on my nerves, too. I frequently heard what people of certain ethnicities/races said about people of other ethnicities/races. I could get more specific, but I won't. Suffice to say that a sense of us vs. them, though perhaps more subtle, is a fact in Canada, just as it is in the US. It was just a part of life growing up in Ontario/Montreal. That diversity creates tendencies to stereotype and misunderstand one another just as racial diversity does in the US.
I never countered the fact that the U.S has a strong intake of immigrants, both historically and modern times. Even in modern times, in absolute numbers there are more immigrants into the U.S than Canada. In relative terms Canada has a greater intake. Last I read it was .8 percent of population for Canada vs .4 percent for the U.S. My post really wasn't getting into that though..
I'll elaborate:
I don't know if you're been in the C v C forums in here but Botti and I have. What I noticed when Toronto was up against typical U.S city was that a lot of the American posters would say well x and x city is more diverse than Toronto because Toronto as a percentage has more whites vs visible minority. We tend to look at diversity a little bit more widespread across the spectrum to include more than just race. It was an observation I made with a lot of American posters. That was really what I was getting at.
I'm not going to dismiss ethnocentrism - but as I said, I was just highlighting some differences in perspective between how certain posters in C/D frame diversity. There really is no logical argument that can dismiss that Toronto is extremely diverse in language/culture/ethnic make up/percentage of resident foreign born. These stats are relatively easy to come by. As a matter of fact, an American poster by the name of Red John did probably the best job I've ever seen comparing the diversity of various U.S cities vs Toronto based ethnicity. Do I think Toronto deserves a gold star for that, no not at all. I'm just highlighting that for anyone who looks at diversity beyond race - Toronto is very diverse and measurably among the most diverse cities in the world.
On a final note, personally I haven't experienced the not-always-so-subtle cultural superiority competitions tbh. There are massive celebrations on the street if Italy wins the World Cup or Spain or etc etc but I don't see this really as being overly competitive, I just see it as pride in the homeland and i'll just celebrate with them. Everyone can be Spanish for the day type of thing. No problem!
NDG - reading your post further I think you might still have a stronger sense of ethnic diversity in Toronto into the future simply because you probably have a larger infusion of different ethnicities/cultures coming in to a greater degree than most U.S cities. This is ongoing so you get a stronger sense of F.O.B for lack of a better term. This isn't to say that the previous intakes of ethnic communities aren't integrating - just that you get this constant new and concentrated infusion than the vast majority of U.S cities. I can't imagine even NYC in representative terms getting as large of a share of the U.S newcomers to it than Toronto does in Canada. The U.S has a lot more cities for immigrants to settle in and disperse - Canada not so much.
The only way I think this will change is if Canada starts scaling back its immigration policy significantly and I don't think that'll happen any time soon.
Last edited by fusion2; 05-28-2016 at 01:31 AM..
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