Is it wrong to honor the Virgin Mary? (Gospel, woman, churches)

[shyspider]

Originally Posted by shrimpboat

I can't adequately speak for the Roman Catholic church but those denominations that branch off the Catholic church [Anglicans, Lutherans & Orthodox] don't reject the early Church. I think the difference with many Protestants is that they don't see themselves as Christians having anything in common with all the centuries of the Church. Luther did not reject anything related to the Church if it was not contrary to the Bible. So tradition was accepted as a valid expression of the Christian faith. And the Virgin Mary was honored by very early Christians; they named their churches for her, had mosaics and statues prominently displayed of Mary and as the ecumenical creeds were formulated by the church councils they addressed Mary. Lutherans accept and profess all the ancient creeds of the Church [Apostles, Nicene and Athanasian creeds] that clearly state that Christ was born of a Virgin.

The Apostles creed states: "He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary". The Nicene creed: "who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, and was made man." Both creeds state that Mary stayed a "virgin" and these statements of the Christian faith were written in the first centuries of the Church [before 400 AD]. The early Church also put together the books of the Bible, specifically the New Testament.

Enow, are you rejecting the early Christian church and are you suggesting that all the centuries of the Church right up to the Reformation in the 1500's are not the "real" teachings of the faith?

On another thread someone posted how Martin Luther and the Lutheran confessions not only refer to Mary as the "blessed Virgin" but also as the "ever Virgin" since they understand the Bible as using the term "brothers or sisters" of Jesus as meaning his cousins and not the offspring of Mary and Joseph. In fact Luther believed that Mary was conceived without sin; that both Christ and Mary were immaculate conceptions. Luther also believed that Mary was assumed into heaven when she died and 3 Sundays ago the Lutheran church celebrated St Mary's death. We accept Mary as the most holy woman since she is the Mother of God and as the Lutheran confessions refer to her as the "Spiritual Mother" and "Queen of Heaven" who prays for the church. We do not recite the Hail Mary though Luther did but we do accept that the virgin Mary has a prominent role in heaven and prays for all who follow her son, Jesus.

These beliefs are consistent with the earliest teachings of the Christian faith. And Lutherans are joined by other Christian denominations that accept the creeds of the church: Episcopalians, Methodists, Presbyterians, etc. I left the Baptist church and now accept that the Christian faith is more than just the Bible but also that the holy spirit guides the church, that Christ instituted holy sacraments where forgiveness of sins is provided and that Christians are part of the "communion of saints" on earth and in heaven. And Mary is the most worthy of praise since she bore Jesus.

So why aren't you Catholic?

[Thomas R.]

Reverence of Mary is in both Catholicism and Orthodoxy as it is in councils up to final Nicaea.

"(15) If anyone shall not confess the holy ever-virgin Mary, truly and properly the Mother, to be higher than every creature whether visible or invisible, and does not with sincere faith seek her intercessions as of one having confidence in her access to our God, since she bare him, let him be anathema." Final Nicaea

Also in the Bible

Luke 1:46-55
46And Mary said:
"My soul glorifies the Lord
47and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
48for he has been mindful
of the humble state of his servant.
From now on all generations will call me blessed,
49for the Mighty One has done great things for me—
holy is his name.
50His mercy extends to those who fear him,
from generation to generation.
51He has performed mighty deeds with his arm;
he has scattered those who are proud in their inmost thoughts.
52He has brought down rulers from their thrones
but has lifted up the humble.
53He has filled the hungry with good things
but has sent the rich away empty.
54He has helped his servant Israel,
remembering to be merciful
55to Abraham and his descendants forever,
even as he said to our fathers."

Although I think it is generally true Jesus wanted to focus more on the "family of believers" rather than one's biological family.

[shrimpboat]

Originally Posted by hiknapster

Well, she doesn't believe in asking Mary to pray for her, either.

To be clear, I don't believe in any of it, and Roman Catholics have usually been extremely nice and Lutherans have been very cold and rude to me, so I certainly don't despise you. This is my mother, who is nuts, anyway. I just wanted to clear up the Lutheran beliefs which seemed to be portrayed incorrectly on this thread.

Are you a Lutheran? I ask because you seem to be misrepresenting Lutheran teachings. If you consult the Lutheran confessions as well as the devotions to Mary by Martin Luther than you will discover a wealth of honor to the virgin Mary. Did you attend church on August 15th; the Sunday was St Mary, Mother of Jesus on the Lutheran church calendar and the service obviously was devoted to the blessed Virgin Mary. Here is just a sampling of how Lutherans view Mary:

"Lutheran Marian theology is derived from Martin Luther's views of Jesus' mother Mary. It was developed out of the deep and pervasive medieval Christian Marian devotion on which he was reared and were subsequently clarified as part of his mature Christocentric theology and piety. Lutherans hold Mary in high esteem. Luther dogmatically asserted what he considered firmly established biblical doctrines like the divine motherhood of Mary while adhering to pious opinions of her perpetual virginity and immaculate conception along with the caveat that all doctrine and piety should exalt and not diminish the person and work of Jesus Christ. The emphasis was always placed on Mary as merely a receiver of God's love and favor".

"Luther held fast to the belief that Mary was a perpetual virgin and the Theotokos or Mother of God. Special attention is given to the assertion, that Luther some three-hundred years before the dogmatization of the Immaculate Conception by Pope Pius IX in 1854, was a firm adherent of that view . . . Luther maintained belief in Mary's lifelong sinlessness. Regarding the Assumption of Mary, he stated, that the Bible did not say anything about it. Important to him was the belief that Mary and the saints do live on after death".

"Lutherans have always believed that Mary is the Theotokos, the mother of God . . . . Luther also approved of keeping Marian paintings and statues in the Churches . . . "Mary prays for the church". He also advocated the use of the first half of the Hail Mary (that is, "Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.") as a sign of reverence for and devotion to the Virgin."
Lutheran Marian theology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There's a ton of information about Mary and Lutheran theology. Just Google it and read for yourself. In my Lutheran parish there is an icon of the Virgin Mary and Jesus with candles underneath. I think for many Lutherans there really is not much emphasis on Mary so some may assume that we believe like other Protestants and reject the role that Mary has in the church since Christ is the focus. But as my pastor said in his sermon, when we honor Mary we are honoring Jesus since they are Mother and Child.

[californio sur]

Originally Posted by hiknapster

Well, she doesn't believe in asking Mary to pray for her, either.

To be clear, I don't believe in any of it, and Roman Catholics have usually been extremely nice and Lutherans have been very cold and rude to me, so I certainly don't despise you. This is my mother, who is nuts, anyway. I just wanted to clear up the Lutheran beliefs which seemed to be portrayed incorrectly on this thread.

Thanks for not despising me! But I think you don't know Lutherans all that well. When I was dating a Lutheran girl we worshiped in her church and I could hardly tell that it was different than a Catholic church. Mary is mentioned in the Lutheran service they even have statues of her in some of their churches.

You can find a lot of photos of Lutheran churches with figures of Mary behind the altar on the Internet:
St Mary's Lutheran Church - Eisleben Germany


Coronation of Mary - Lutheran Cathedral Denmark


Lutheran Church -side altar - Pittsburgh PA

[Katzpur]

I'd love to have a Catholic respond to my post #18.

[shyspider]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

I'd love to have a Catholic respond to my post #18.

Likewise, I'd like to hear Shrimpboat's response to my question in post #21. Given the sound of his/her words in support of Catholicism, I can't help but wonder why he/she is still Lutheran.

[shrimpboat]

Originally Posted by shyspider

Likewise, I'd like to hear Shrimpboat's response to my question in post #21. Given the sound of his/her words in support of Catholicism, I can't help but wonder why he/she is still Lutheran.

Hey, if you only knew how far I have come in my journey of faith. Raised in a strict Baptist home, I married a Lutheran woman and joined her church. Our boys were baptized as infants, have taken their first communions and confirmations in the Lutheran church. My parents and sibs remain active Baptists but worship with us when visiting. It still is a bit of a struggle since my dad in particular is not very comfortable in a Lutheran church; he doesn't like the ceremony, kneeling, sign of the cross and when incense is used at Christmas he prefers to step outside for a while.

But to answer your question, I feel that I am a "catholic" but not a Roman Catholic. Some Christians: mostly Orthodox, Episcopalians, Lutherans worship like Roman Catholics and share most of the same views on the faith. I do not believe that the pope is infallible just like the other Christians in the world. The Pope holds a revered position but is viewed as equal to other bishops in my opinion and that is the official position of the Orthodox, Anglican and Lutheran churches. There are some other issues but they are minor such as forced celibacy, not allowing female priests, and purgatory.

[auntieannie68]

Originally Posted by hiknapster

I was born and raised Lutheran. Lutherans do not pray to Mary. Yes, they believe that Mary was a virgin but Lutherans do not pray to saints. In fact, my mother has been a Lutheran for 76 years, despises the Roman Catholic church and does not believe in saints or praying to anyone but Jesus and God, who she believes are one in the same.

can someone be truly christian and despise someone else's worship of God?

[hiknapster]

Aye, yi, yi!

Just because someone recently converted, or better yet, went to their girlfriend's Lutheran church, it doesn't make you an expert on Lutheran Marianology. I was born into and raised in the Lutheran faith and I am 49. I may be an atheist now but I know what Lutherans believe.

By the way, what branch of Lutheran are we talking about? Missouri Synod? Wisconsin? ELCA?

Lutherans may have carvings or pictures of Mary, but they are not worshiping her or even asking for her help or intercession.

Yes, the worship service is almost identical in many, many ways, but saying the Nicene creed and praying to Mary for help are two very, very, very different things. My entire family would faint if they realized newcomers misunderstood these things.

From that same link.

Luther came to criticize Roman Catholics for blurring the distinction between high admiration of the grace of God wherever it is manifested in human beings and religious service offered to them and other mere creatures. In some instances he considered the Roman Catholic practice of making intercessory requests addressed especially to Mary and other departed saints to be idolatry.[27]

"Furthermore, how will you endure [the Romanists'] terrible idolatries? It was not enough that they venerated the saints and praised God in them, but they actually made them into gods. They put that noble child, the mother Mary, right into the place of Christ. They fashioned Christ into a judge and thus devised a tyrant for anguished consciences, so that all comfort and confidence was transferred from Christ to Mary, and then everyone turned from Christ to his particular saint. Can anyone deny this? Is it not true?"[28]
This distinction separates Lutheran views from Roman Catholic Mariology. It is also significant in the context of Roman Catholic claims, that modern Protestants deserted Luther's Mariology. Roman Catholics and Protestants may have held some similar views on Mary in the 16th century, but for Luther it was a "passive" Mariology, while for Roman Catholics it was "active" in suggesting devout veneration ("hyperdulia") and constant prayers for intercession. Questions have been raised, if the Marian views of Martin Luther could bring separated Christians closer together. These seems to be scepticism on both sides.[29] The eighth "Lutherans and Catholics in Dialogue" addressed these issues.

Throughout Luther's life, he called Mary by the title Theotokos, Mother of God,[30] but at the same time he rejected the active invocation of Mary as formulated in such prayers as the "Hail Mary."[31] Protestantism usually follows the reformers in rejecting the practice of directly addressing Mary and other saints in prayers of admiration or petition, as part of their religious worship of God.[32]

And as much as Luther praised Mary, the Lutheran faith has traveled even further away from that. Also, August 15 is considered a lesser festival day. Many Lutheran churches don't celebrate it or even recognize it and Missouri Synod and Wisconsin would NEVER do such a thing. Your new in that faith and I don't think you understand its history.

Once again, if anything I side with the Roman Catholics on where they stand, but I KNOW what Lutheran doctrine is. If you have any questions, I suggest you ask the pastor. He will enlighten you.

[hiknapster]

Originally Posted by auntieannie68

can someone be truly christian and despise someone else's worship of God?

Well, I agree, but this is my mother we are talking about. Personally, I think she represents Satan, if there is such a thing. Unfortunately, the woman spouts venom. It doesn't do wonders for Christianity.