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Rev 1 - to the seven churches which are in Asia:
Rev 22 - I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches
This simply talks about audience and source . . . NOT WHAT Revelation is ACTUALLY intended to communicate to the audience from the source! Do you have a reading comprehension problem, sciota?
First of all, I would like to say that everyone involved in this discussion has brought up some excellent points. I am a christain and have been for some time now. I used to believe in ET--only because that was what I was taught and I thought that was what the scriptures taught. But thank the Lord that He showed me this doctrine is false. This doctrine caused me so much damage mentally. I won't even go into that. It wasn't until I studied and searched with all of my heart that I was freed from it. However, I am still perplexed. Even though I don't believe ET is true, in all honesty I am sitting on the fence as to whether I believe in ED or UR. I have studied both. I can definitely see why there are believers in both. There are scriptures to support both. But of course, both cannot be true. I admit that I lean more towards annihilation, but cannot explain away several of the UR scriptures. Of course I would LOVE for UR to be true...just as I'm sure most others would also, but I have to base my beliefs on God's truth, not my own wishes. I have been praying that the Lord will show me the direction to go in because this uncertainty does not set well with who I am and how I deal with things. I want to be well-grounded in my faith. I'm not jumping in on this discussion to argue for or against either view, because as I stated, I'm not sure what I believe at this moment in my walk with the Lord. However, I did notice that the destruction of S&G were mentioned, which is what compelled me to involve myself. I know that S&G were destroyed and are an example as to what is going to happen to the unrepentant (which supports ED view), BUT I also remember in my study that S&G are going to be RESTORED (which can be used to support UR). This is just one of many reasons why I'm perplexed. Anyone have a good insight on this issue? Thanks so much! God bless.
First of all, I would like to say that everyone involved in this discussion has brought up some excellent points. I am a christain and have been for some time now. I used to believe in ET--only because that was what I was taught and I thought that was what the scriptures taught. But thank the Lord that He showed me this doctrine is false. This doctrine caused me so much damage mentally. I won't even go into that. It wasn't until I studied and searched with all of my heart that I was freed from it. However, I am still perplexed. Even though I don't believe ET is true, in all honesty I am sitting on the fence as to whether I believe in ED or UR. I have studied both. I can definitely see why there are believers in both. There are scriptures to support both. But of course, both cannot be true. I admit that I lean more towards annihilation, but cannot explain away several of the UR scriptures. Of course I would LOVE for UR to be true...just as I'm sure most others would also, but I have to base my beliefs on God's truth, not my own wishes. I have been praying that the Lord will show me the direction to go in because this uncertainty does not set well with who I am and how I deal with things. I want to be well-grounded in my faith. I'm not jumping in on this discussion to argue for or against either view, because as I stated, I'm not sure what I believe at this moment in my walk with the Lord. However, I did notice that the destruction of S&G were mentioned, which is what compelled me to involve myself. I know that S&G were destroyed and are an example as to what is going to happen to the unrepentant (which supports ED view), BUT I also remember in my study that S&G are going to be RESTORED (which can be used to support UR). This is just one of many reasons why I'm perplexed. Anyone have a good insight on this issue? Thanks so much! God bless.
Welcome luvthetruth,
The main problem with annihilation is this: billions of people will remain eternally dead, but scripture proclaims that death will have no victory. But if billions remain eternally dead, that would be quite a big victory for death wouldn't you agree? Christ defeats death so that it has NO victory. He does this by eventually making all alive, each in their own order. Therefore no one can be dead forever, otherwise Christ would not have achieved what He says He will do.
The destruction passages will start to make sense once you realize what it is that is being destroyed. Yes the wicked are destroyed. But do you realize we are all wicked? The way the wicked are destroyed is by having the wickedness removed from them, so then they will no longer be wicked. When the wickedness is destroyed what is left is righteousness. The theme is: destruction is followed by restoration. Thus S&G will be restored and will no longer be wicked.
Consider our two natures - the old man (carnal nature) vs. the new creation. Saul of Tarsus was destroyed and replaced with the new creation Paul, the great apostle. Saul will not be inheriting the Kingdom, but Paul will.
ED (eternal death) and UR do have some commonality. The relevant question though is: "What exactly is annihilated?"
ED proposes that the complete person is annihilated, while UR proposes it is the wicked nature in each of us that is annihilated. The old man must die...
This simply talks about audience and source . . . NOT WHAT Revelation is ACTUALLY intended to communicate to the audience from the source! Do you have a reading comprehension problem, sciota?
Again Mystic....why are you so offensive? Do you really think that people reading your posts who don't believe will consider you "Christ-like?"
OF course it talks about audience....relevance.
It is written to them, and it only concerns them and those living in that time period.
ED (eternal death) and UR do have some commonality. The relevant question though is: "What exactly is annihilated?"
ED proposes that the complete person is annihilated, while UR proposes it is the wicked nature in each of us that is annihilated. The old man must die...
Rev 21:5
He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everythingnew!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."
ED (eternal death) and UR do have some commonality. The relevant question though is: "What exactly is annihilated?"
ED proposes that the complete person is annihilated, while UR proposes it is the wicked nature in each of us that is annihilated. The old man must die...
The wheat and the tares grow up together; but the tares cannot be uprooted without also destroying the wheat. They have to be specifically removed, somewhat like, the removal and separation of bone marrow cells.
First of all, I would like to say that everyone involved in this discussion has brought up some excellent points. I am a christain and have been for some time now. I used to believe in ET--only because that was what I was taught and I thought that was what the scriptures taught. But thank the Lord that He showed me this doctrine is false. This doctrine caused me so much damage mentally. I won't even go into that. It wasn't until I studied and searched with all of my heart that I was freed from it. However, I am still perplexed. Even though I don't believe ET is true, in all honesty I am sitting on the fence as to whether I believe in ED or UR. I have studied both. I can definitely see why there are believers in both. There are scriptures to support both. But of course, both cannot be true. I admit that I lean more towards annihilation, but cannot explain away several of the UR scriptures. Of course I would LOVE for UR to be true...just as I'm sure most others would also, but I have to base my beliefs on God's truth, not my own wishes. I have been praying that the Lord will show me the direction to go in because this uncertainty does not set well with who I am and how I deal with things. I want to be well-grounded in my faith. I'm not jumping in on this discussion to argue for or against either view, because as I stated, I'm not sure what I believe at this moment in my walk with the Lord. However, I did notice that the destruction of S&G were mentioned, which is what compelled me to involve myself. I know that S&G were destroyed and are an example as to what is going to happen to the unrepentant (which supports ED view), BUT I also remember in my study that S&G are going to be RESTORED (which can be used to support UR). This is just one of many reasons why I'm perplexed. Anyone have a good insight on this issue? Thanks so much! God bless.
Just wanted to say God bless you in your search, I know that His Holy Spirit while guide all those who truly seek truth. I will be doing some research regarding the S&G restoration passages from Ezekiel 16 and I'll let you know what I find.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero 7
One thing I'd like to mention, could you annihilate one of your own children for not lviing up to your standards? Yep, and neither can our Father.
God Bless.
This is unfortunately based on a distorted view of God and His nature. Let me give you an example and try to clear this up somewhat.
Picture a child playing in the street. Now the loving mother of this child let's her son know that if he continues to play in the street, he is going to get a spanking. If the child continues to play in the street, and the mother spanks him, does he feel pain and suffering? Yes he does. Is that pain and suffering he is feeling imposed by his mother or intrinsic to playing in the street? It is clearly imposed by his mother. Now lets say the mother does not do anything about her son playing in the street, and he gets hit by a car, does he feel pain and suffering? Yes. Is that pain and suffering imposed by his mother or is it intrinsic to the hazard of playing in the street? Clearly it is intrinsic to the hazard of playing in the street. With situations like these it is clear to understand that children are not mature enough to see the intrinsic harm in some of their behavior and so punishment is imposed, to try and protect the child through the maturing process. You see the child at his early age didn't play in the street because his mom would beat him, however when he matured he continued to not play in the street because he understood the hazards involved and could also better understand that his mom's threats of beatings were imposed for his own protection. Now as an adult, his mom can no longer spank him for playing in the street, and he is free to play in the street, but if he does and gets hit by a car, it isn't because of anything imposed by his mom, it is the intrinsic nature of playing in the street.
Sin is intrinsically hazardous to our health. The reason there was so much imposed punishment in the OT was because Humankind was still in its childhood. We did not understand the intrinsic hazards of sin. Christ came to reveal to us who God truly was, and what His character was. After the cross, it was clear that God considered us grown up enough to understand what sin was and how hazardous it is to our health. He can't spank us anymore. If we choose to play in the street of sin, we will get hurt and eventually killed, not because we are being punished by God, but because of the intrinsically lethal nature of sin. Excessive guilt can cause excessive torment, excessive torment can cause death. Christ died on the cross because the guilt of our sins caused an unbearable torment which lead to His death. When unrepentant sinners see the glory of Christ coming in the clouds, their guilt will cause such torment that they will seek the rocks to fall on them. So will be the same for the annihilated, they will go to their end, not sent by God, but by their choice to reject the forgiveness that God had already granted them at the cross.
Last edited by HalfNelson; 10-13-2010 at 03:13 AM..
So will be the same for the annihilated, they will go to their end, not sent by God, but by their choice to reject the forgiveness that God had already granted them at the cross
Does God have anything to do with that person choosing? So my choice to reject God is greater than His ability to save me? If I can save myself by figuring it all out and choosing to accept His forgivness, then I have bragging rights when I get to heaven.
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