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Matthew 3:11
John answered all of them: Behold I truly baptize you in the days of repentance, but another comes mightier than I, the thong of whose sandal I am not worthy to unfasten. He will baptize you with the fire of the Holy Spirit.
Now notice it doesn't say with Fire AND the Holy Spirit. But with Fire OF the Holy Spirit.
You're so very WRONG. UR DOES NOT believe that God torments...period....much less by fire. Those who are in need of "refinement" will be tried by God's Holy "spiritual fire" which is something we experience in the here and now. Is it literal "fire"? Of course not! None of what is described, the lake of fire for instance, is literal fire. We may not understand completely what "spiritual fire" is, but it's not the kind of fire that burns. I feel as though it is a complete washing by the Holy Spirit and after that process we will be clean and presentable to God. All sin will be "burned off" by the spiritual fire of cleansing and refinement, like gold.
Once one has been cleansed and experiences a true rebirth by way of God's Holy Spirit, this is when that one will gladly bow and proclaim Jesus' name. You'll see.
Even although I'm a deconvert (I'm not happy about it, but it happened and I'm slowly coming to terms with it), I can't deny the change I've seen in you since you embraced UR and IMHO it's a change for the better, I see a much different person than when I first joined
Why am I not convinced that you are on the right track, despite the change I've seen in you
Quite frankly and honestly, I've never had a revelation of UR and that there is an all loving benevolent God that loves all of us unconditionally without exception, what I'm seeing all around me contradicts an all loving and all benevolent God, however this doesn't make yours and others experiences invalid
If he does indeed exist and I knew this for sure, I'd embrace him with open arms
Last edited by TheUnknown67; 10-06-2010 at 11:47 AM..
It is too bad that this simple truth is lost on the UR crowd.
Many people were converted to Christianity over the centuries.......at the point of a sword. Same thing here.
Romans 14:11 and Phil 2:9-11 is a reference and quote of the OT scriptures. From the NASB:
Isaiah 45
22"Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;
For I am God, and there is no other.
23"I have sworn by Myself,
The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swearallegiance.
Other versions translate as "every tongue will swear". This is not talking about cursing, but about saying an oath of loyalty. Swearing allegiance.
This is no forced confession or simple acknowledgement. It is impossible to "force" someone to be loyal to you. They would only be saying words while not meaning it in their heart. Yet Isaiah 45 tells us they will swear to be loyal - swear allegiance - and confess that Jesus is their Lord and Savior. This will all be done to the glory of the Father. The Father does not get or need glory from people burning forever in hell. The most glorious thing possible would be the complete reconciliation and restoration of His creation.
Its nothing to do with "converting to Christianity at the point of a sword".
When everyone realizes how stupid they have been, they will all will confess that Jesus is Lord. They will be ashamed of what they have done. And they will be saved.
Even although I'm a deconvert (I'm not happy about it, but it happened and I'm slowly coming to terms with it), I can't deny the change I've seen in you since you embraced UR and IMHO it's a change for the better, I see a much different person than when I first joined
Why am I not convinced that you are on the right track, despite the change I've seen in you
Quite frankly and honestly, I've never had a revelation of UR and that there is an all loving benevolent God that loves all of us unconditionally without exception, what I'm seeing all around me contradicts an all loving and all benevolent God, however this doesn't make yours and others experiences invalid
If he does indeed exist and I knew this for sure, I embrace him with open arms
Hi alison,
I know you said all three views (ET, UR, ED) can be supported from the bible, but IMHO that is only on the surface of it. If you dig into it deeper with any kind of reasonable or logical thinking - an honest investigation - only UR can be possible. Anything else leads to endless contradictions.
IMHO in order to believe in ET or ED you must engage in doublethink and ignore the obvious contradictions.
If he does indeed exist and I knew this for sure, I embrace him with open arms
Thankyou for your very honest statement here. I think many people are like this - even atheists - if they had been given a revelation or belief they would embrace God as well.
In the end, if there is an all-loving all-powerful God (and I believe there is) - He will eventually reveal himself plainly to every single person who has ever existed. And they will all realize duh I feel like an idiot, please forgive me - they will be changed in an instant - and God will be like LOVE.
Think of being a little kid running into daddy's or mommy's arms and getting a giant hug.
I know you said all three views (ET, UR, ED) can be supported from the bible, but IMHO that is only on the surface of it. If you dig into it deeper with any kind of reasonable or logical thinking - an honest investigation - only UR can be possible. Anything else leads to endless contradictions.
IMHO in order to believe in ET or ED you must engage in doublethink and ignore the obvious contradictions.
You are right, the only thing I'm seeing is contradictions and a convoluted mess, I've actually shipwrecked what little faith I had left, I feel totally lost, I keep hoping the penny (if it's there) will eventually drop one day, I'm so fed up right now I wish atheism was true, but don't for one second believe that it is...I don't see how it explains anything better than the ET/ED belief, I think the truth must be far more complex than any of these belief systems, which all use faulty and illogical reasoning IMHO
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman
Thankyou for your very honest statement here. I think many people are like this - even atheists - if they had been given a revelation or belief they would embrace God as well.
In the end, if there is an all-loving all-powerful God (and I believe there is) - He will eventually reveal himself plainly to every single person who has ever existed. And they will all realize duh I feel like an idiot, please forgive me - they will be changed in an instant - and God will be like LOVE.
Think of being a little kid running into daddy's or mommy's arms and getting a giant hug.
I have no doubt I/they would, I only wish it was sooner rather than later
You are right, the only thing I'm seeing is contradictions and a convoluted mess, I've actually shipwrecked what little faith I had left, I feel totally lost, I keep hoping the penny (if it's there) will eventually drop one day, I'm so fed up right now I wish atheism was true, but don't for one second believe that it is...I don't see how it explains anything better than the ET/ED belief, I think the truth must be far more complex than any of these belief systems, which all use faulty and illogical reasoning IMHO
For me, this is the key when I start getting bogged down in illogical complicated systems:
LOVE = God = Jesus = The Truth = Logic
Anything that violates this equation is false. For example, here's an obvious conclusion we can draw: if something is illogical, it is false. 2+2=5. That is false.
Here's maybe a not so obvious one: love is logical. It is logical that we should all love each other: love God, love our neighbor's, even love our enemies. Because in doing so we would destroy our enemies (convert them to friends), and understand the nature of God.
If everyone truly loved each other, there would be no hate, no murder, no wars, no poverty, no starvation.
Even although I'm a deconvert (I'm not happy about it, but it happened and I'm slowly coming to terms with it), I can't deny the change I've seen in you since you embraced UR and IMHO it's a change for the better, I see a much different person than when I first joined
Why am I not convinced that you are on the right track, despite the change I've seen in you
Quite frankly and honestly, I've never had a revelation of UR and that there is an all loving benevolent God that loves all of us unconditionally without exception, what I'm seeing all around me contradicts an all loving and all benevolent God, however this doesn't make yours and others experiences invalid
If he does indeed exist and I knew this for sure, I'd embrace him with open arms
I know you've been having a hard time with it Alison and I'm sorry about that. We all need that one experience to let us know that God is real....although some can just take it on faith. I know that He's real from several experiences but that's subjective and very hard to convince someone else of. Impossible, I would say. I will pray that God will give you that experience of your own so there is no doubt in your mind as to His existence and that He is in fact a very loving God, not the God that ET portrays. You'll be embracing Him with open arms before you know it.
Even although I'm a deconvert (I'm not happy about it, but it happened and I'm slowly coming to terms with it), I can't deny the change I've seen in you since you embraced UR and IMHO it's a change for the better, I see a much different person than when I first joined
Why am I not convinced that you are on the right track, despite the change I've seen in you
Quite frankly and honestly, I've never had a revelation of UR and that there is an all loving benevolent God that loves all of us unconditionally without exception, what I'm seeing all around me contradicts an all loving and all benevolent God, however this doesn't make yours and others experiences invalid
If he does indeed exist and I knew this for sure, I'd embrace him with open arms
Hi alisonminnie, there is something very telling that I want to share with you that may help you to think about the reality of Christ. Of all the people that would not have wanted claims about Jesus as the Messiah to be True would have been the Jews of Jesus time. They seen Him obviously as a false prophet that they believed committed blasphemy.
So what if you were to read about things that these Jewish sages recorded that supported the case for Jesus? Would it help you in your faith? I think some of the more amazing account are from Jewish writings:
You're so very WRONG. UR DOES NOT believe that God torments...period....much less by fire. Those who are in need of "refinement" will be tried by God's Holy "spiritual fire" which is something we experience in the here and now. Is it literal "fire"? Of course not! None of what is described, the lake of fire for instance, is literal fire. We may not understand completely what "spiritual fire" is, but it's not the kind of fire that burns. I feel as though it is a complete washing by the Holy Spirit and after that process we will be clean and presentable to God. All sin will be "burned off" by the spiritual fire of cleansing and refinement, like gold.
Once one has been cleansed and experiences a true rebirth by way of God's Holy Spirit, this is when that one will gladly bow and proclaim Jesus' name. You'll see.
And what scriptural proof do you have that it is not a literal consuming and destructive fire? Don't even start giving me texts that speak of other places in the Bible that use fire metaphorically, because I can certainly provide ample texts that use fire literally, like; the fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, the fire that lit Elijah's alter, and yes the fire that will consume the wicked after the second resurrection. By the way, why on earth is there a 2nd resurrection if "Those who are in need of "refinement" will be tried by God's Holy "spiritual fire" which is something we experience in the here and no"? Also, how will anybody in Heaven be free if they have no choice but to be there? Also, why can't Satan be there too? Are you saying that God doesn't have sufficient power to cleanse him too? God is love so surely he even loves Satan, so am i to understand that Satan also gets eternal life under the UR paradigm?
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I only hope you are right
duh I feel like an idiot, please forgive me - they will be changed in an instant - and God will be like 
LOVE.
