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Just wanted to say God bless you in your search, I know that His Holy Spirit while guide all those who truly seek truth. I will be doing some research regarding the S&G restoration passages from Ezekiel 16 and I'll let you know what I find.
This is unfortunately based on a distorted view of God and His nature. Let me give you an example and try to clear this up somewhat.
Picture a child playing in the street. Now the loving mother of this child let's her son know that if he continues to play in the street, he is going to get a spanking. If the child continues to play in the street, and the mother spanks him, does he feel pain and suffering? Yes he does. Is that pain and suffering he is feeling imposed by his mother or intrinsic to playing in the street? It is clearly imposed by his mother. Now lets say the mother does not do anything about her son playing in the street, and he gets hit by a car, does he feel pain and suffering? Yes. Is that pain and suffering imposed by his mother or is it intrinsic to the hazard of playing in the street? Clearly it is intrinsic to the hazard of playing in the street. With situations like these it is clear to understand that children are not mature enough to see the intrinsic harm in some of their behavior and so punishment is imposed, to try and protect the child through the maturing process. You see the child at his early age didn't play in the street because his mom would beat him, however when he matured he continued to not play in the street because he understood the hazards involved and could also better understand that his mom's threats of beatings were imposed for his own protection. Now as an adult, his mom can no longer spank him for playing in the street, and he is free to play in the street, but if he does and gets hit by a car, it isn't because of anything imposed by his mom, it is the intrinsic nature of playing in the street.
Sin is intrinsically hazardous to our health. The reason there was so much imposed punishment in the OT was because Humankind was still in its childhood. We did not understand the intrinsic hazards of sin. Christ came to reveal to us who God truly was, and what His character was. After the cross, it was clear that God considered us grown up enough to understand what sin was and how hazardous it is to our health. He can't spank us anymore. If we choose to play in the street of sin, we will get hurt and eventually killed, not because we are being punished by God, but because of the intrinsically lethal nature of sin.
I agree with your analogy here, but it is worth noting that if one still wants to play in the "street of sin", they are not yet fully mature. Just as no mature adult would go play in the freeway, no spiritually mature person would go play in the street of sin. We all have a lot of maturing to do still yet I think.
I agree with your analogy here, but it is worth noting that if one still wants to play in the "street of sin", they are not yet fully mature. Just as no mature adult would go play in the freeway, no spiritually mature person would go play in the street of sin. We all have a lot of maturing to do still yet I think.
That is the thing though, I wasn't simply talking about spiritual maturity. Spiritual maturity is not something that everybody reaches in the sense of there understanding of Christ. People only need to be able to understand the difference between right and wrong, before they are considered mature enough to make their own decisions. Spiritual maturity comes about through a relationship with Christ. It is through that relationship that the Holy Spirit does His greatest work in bringing someone to deeper spiritual truths. The thing about healthy relationships is that they are always willingly developed by both parties. It doesn't matter how much a man loves His wife; if she doesn't want a relationship with him, then it doesn't matter what the husband does, the relationship will still crumble. Think about a girl who is being wooed by a guy. He is making it clear that he wants to develop a relationship with her. Now it doesn't matter how great and wonderful the guy is, if she doesn't choose to respond positively to his wooing, then no relationship will develope. Now we all know that there are plenty of girls out there (and guys for the flipped scenario) who know good and well that the guy wooing her is wonderful in so many ways; I mean her friends are telling her, her family is telling her, and even her heart is telling her that this guy is as genuine as his efforts to win her heart, however, her heart is still hers to give, and because she has spent her life chasing the things of this world, she chooses the guy that can get her the modeling contract she wants, and ultimately rejects the other guy. The thing about this other guy is that he never stops loving her, and trying to get her attention, but at some point in her life she rejects so completely that she can't even hear him calling to her. She tells her assistants to burn all her mail and blocks all phone calls from his number. He never stops trying to call or write but she reaches that point where her mind is just made up. We all ask ourselves "why on earth would she ever reject something that was so good for her?" and the answer is simple, she loved sin more than the guy who sought her affection. I often thought that Satan was the king and ruler of sin, but I have come to realize that sin rules Satan. He became so enamored by it that no amount of pleading by God could shake that, and it lead him to utter ruin. God speaks to everymans heart in some way to woo them and win their heart and affection. He reveals enough of Himself to everyone on earth from them to decide to respond to Him or reject Him. The more We respond the more He shares, the more He shares, the more we grow in love and understanding of who He is. The more we reject God's attempts to win our hearts, the harder it becomes to hear His plea for our affection. He never stops pleading, we just stop listening and if that continues till we die then God is heartbroken at our loss and rejection of Him. In the end, people will not suffer eternal destruction because they failed to understand enough of God, they will suffer eternal destruction because they refused to let go of sin.
That is the thing though, I wasn't simply talking about spiritual maturity. Spiritual maturity is not something that everybody reaches in the sense of there understanding of Christ. People only need to be able to understand the difference between right and wrong, before they are considered mature enough to make their own decisions. Spiritual maturity comes about through a relationship with Christ. It is through that relationship that the Holy Spirit does His greatest work in bringing someone to deeper spiritual truths. The thing about healthy relationships is that they are always willingly developed by both parties. It doesn't matter how much a man loves His wife; if she doesn't want a relationship with him, then it doesn't matter what the husband does, the relationship will still crumble. Think about a girl who is being wooed by a guy. He is making it clear that he wants to develop a relationship with her. Now it doesn't matter how great and wonderful the guy is, if she doesn't choose to respond positively to his wooing, then no relationship will develope. Now we all know that there are plenty of girls out there (and guys for the flipped scenario) who know good and well that the guy wooing her is wonderful in so many ways; I mean her friends are telling her, her family is telling her, and even her heart is telling her that this guy is as genuine as his efforts to win her heart, however, her heart is still hers to give, and because she has spent her life chasing the things of this world, she chooses the guy that can get her the modeling contract she wants, and ultimately rejects the other guy. The thing about this other guy is that he never stops loving her, and trying to get her attention, but at some point in her life she rejects so completely that she can't even hear him calling to her. She tells her assistants to burn all her mail and blocks all phone calls from his number. He never stops trying to call or write but she reaches that point where her mind is just made up. We all ask ourselves "why on earth would she ever reject something that was so good for her?" and the answer is simple, she loved sin more than the guy who sought her affection. I often thought that Satan was the king and ruler of sin, but I have come to realize that sin rules Satan. He became so enamored by it that no amount of pleading by God could shake that, and it lead him to utter ruin. God speaks to everymans heart in some way to woo them and win their heart and affection. He reveals enough of Himself to everyone on earth from them to decide to respond to Him or reject Him. The more We respond the more He shares, the more He shares, the more we grow in love and understanding of who He is. The more we reject God's attempts to win our hearts, the harder it becomes to hear His plea for our affection. He never stops pleading, we just stop listening and if that continues till we die then God is heartbroken at our loss and rejection of Him. In the end, people will not suffer eternal destruction because they failed to understand enough of God, they will suffer eternal destruction because they refused to let go of sin.
My goodness brother...the Spirit of Christ speaks through you...beautiful...simply beautiful. God Bless you.
You make my heart smile with joy...I so appreciate you being here...such a blessing to me. Thank you.
My goodness brother...the Spirit of Christ speaks through you...beautiful...simply beautiful. God Bless you.
You make my heart smile with joy...I so appreciate you being here...such a blessing to me. Thank you.
In Christ's love,
Your sister in Christ,
Verna.
Thank you for those kind words Verna. I can take no credit for it though as it is all the doing of Christ through His Holy Spirit. I have been attending a seminar by a young guy named Herb Montgomery, who has caused the most beautiful paradigm shift in my understanding of God's character, and how I see Him and especially Christ's cross. Words cannot describe the clarity this seminar has brought to the message of God's love for us. He has a site renewedheartministries.com and I would recommend every human being on earth to check it out, it is his series titled Life Unlimited.
God speaks to everymans heart in some way to woo them and win their heart and affection.
He reveals enough of Himself to everyone on earth from them to decide to respond to Him or reject Him.
The more We respond the more He shares, the more He shares, the more we grow in love and understanding of who He is. The more we reject God's attempts to win our hearts, the harder it becomes to hear His plea for our affection. He never stops pleading, we just stop listening and if that continues till we die then God is heartbroken at our loss and rejection of Him.
I'm not sure how God speaks or reveals himself to child soldiers in Africa who are raped repeatedly and then are handed guns and die in their late teens or 20s, their souls full of violence and/or PTSD.
I'm heartbroken at Christianity's pat answers and blindness and their demonic doctrines of everlasting torment or annihilation.
Last edited by herefornow; 10-13-2010 at 02:47 PM..
I'm not sure how God speaks or reveals himself to child soldiers in Africa who are raped repeatedly and then are handed guns and die in their late teens or 20s, their souls full of violence and/or PTSD.
I'm heartbroken at Christianity's pat answers and blindness and their demonic doctrines of everlasting torment or annihilation.
He's wooing them still herefornow. They probably just can't hear him over the rape, the drugs forced on them, and the guns thrust into their hands that they at pain of death must shoot. That's of course down to their choices.
Look, this view of Christianity, righteousness and sin only really works when you have nothing bigger to worry about than what you do, or what you say, or how you behave. when you have the comfortable societal basis to live thinking only about what you do and what you want to do. For the 70% of the world's population that dont' live in a comfortable modern lifestyle, they have to worry about things other than what they believe, they have to survive day to day. There's no compatability between Christian doctrine and those lifestyles because Christianity, didn't arise, nor was it propogated in those circumstances. It was propogated originally by a very comfortable and well off Roman Empire, followed by a Holy Roman Empire.
There's so much wrong with what halfnelson wrote that it's bordering ridiculous. God turned people into pillars of salt, and came down as fire from the sky to spank the child. Now the species is an adult, he doesn't bother spanking any more, he just relies on the lethality of sin itself, rather than the lethality of himself. (When sin would logically have been just as lethal). It's a ncie way of tying together two completely absurd doctrines that just don't fit inherently together, because they arose from 2 very different time periods and religious schools of thought. It's also a nice way of explaining why historically they get walking on water, and now we get, 'a feeling that he's working with me' as evidence of his existance.
Then there's the man that truly loves the woman, that is then rejected because she doesn't want a relationship with her. This idea of 'wanting' a relationship. People can't pick what they love and what they believe in. They aren't choices. She may ultimately have married for sinful reasons in this ridicuous analogy, but the truth is, she clearly didn't love the guy back. She just could't love him. That's not her fault. Similarly, those that can't make the leap of faith. That can't believe. That's not a choice. I may really want to believe in a green fairy called rubadink that will give me cheese when I'm hungry, but the bottom line is, I can't. A belief is something you can either believe, or you cannot believe, no one chooses to believe things, not really. They can want to believe, with all their heart and not get there. That's not a sin. That's just how some people are. And if they are that way, God made them that way.
For ye have the poor always with you; but me ye have not always.
This attitude doesn't have anything to do with how we should treat the poor, and it doesn't mean that God will not revive everything in the end. In fact, Jesus' attitude probably had everything to do with Christ's knowledge of things many in Orthodox Christianity (and much of the world) do not understand.
Last edited by herefornow; 10-13-2010 at 07:11 PM..
I'm not sure how God speaks or reveals himself to child soldiers in Africa who are raped repeatedly and then are handed guns and die in their late teens or 20s, their souls full of violence and/or PTSD.
I'm heartbroken at Christianity's pat answers and blindness and their demonic doctrines of everlasting torment or annihilation.
Are you saying that a person in that situation is incapable of understanding right/wrong? God is the only one who knows to what extent He revealed Himself to someone and to what extent His revelations were rejected. How on earth can you or I know that, and did I ever even presume to know that?
If you don't mind me asking, what are your thoughts on the example you presented, as it relates to God, and what do you think my views are on it?
Are you saying that a person in that situation is incapable of understanding right/wrong? God is the only one who knows to what extent He revealed Himself to someone and to what extent His revelations were rejected. How on earth can you or I know that, and did I ever even presume to know that?
If you don't mind me asking, what are your thoughts on the example you presented, as it relates to God, and what do you think my views are on it?
When babies and small children are raped and molested (God is still sovereign, yes?) they are stimulated and turned on at very young ages, and will most likely have PTSD and other assorted sexual problems, which in turn turns them into highly active sexual individuals, prone to drug abuse to kill the pain and lost in the abuse/abuser cycle. Many of these kids have been tortured and threatened in some very sick places around the world. Give them a gun, threaten them with amputation or death, and they are going to shoot the "enemy." They have absolutely no idea what love is, and if you told them, they wouldn't believe you. It does not exist in their very dark world. Many adults and children live tormented lives and will never, ever know love down here on this planet.
If you were to tell them that a sovereign God died for them to protect them from himself, thereby keeping them from being set on fire for eternity or to keep God from annihilating them after all they went through on good ol' planet earth, and you informed them that anything good they did was nothing but filthy rags......
Let's just say.
Somebody screwed up this religion of love (Christianity) big time.
A truly demonic doctrine, hell and annihilation.
GOD IS LOVE!!!!
I believe our pastors and teachers are going to have a LOT to answer for..........
Last edited by herefornow; 10-13-2010 at 08:37 PM..
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