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I understand that your faith is very important to you. I understand that you believe in an afterlife -and where you spend that afterlife is very important to you. What I don't understand is why so many of you dwell on where you believe everyone else will go after we die. You seem more than postive that you will go to Heaven and live forever with God - why spend so much time contemplating what will happen to the people that hold different beliefs? It seems that many derive some sort of satisfaction thinking about how they will go to Heaven while others will be punished or will just cease to exist. It's almost like it reassures your superiority over everyone else. Because if you really cared about the people with other beliefs - it just seems that you would be nice to them and talk to them and be a role model of love and patience for them. I know that you clearly dislike me and everything I say - and I know that you do not appreciate my thoughts or my posts on this forum. That is quite evident. And yet - who is the post about, really? It's about me and the others whose beliefs you consider false. It's about what you believe our fate to be. I just don't see the point of arguing over the fate of those that you clearly don't care about at all.
I never said my life was beautiful - and yes - I know you were being sarcastic, but life has been a wonderful journey and every day is a new adventure. If I die and it is truly the end - it will have been a life of love and few if no regrets. I wish the same for everyone.
Respectfully Dewdrop...It really doesn't matter "what you think" now does it?....
THAT is fair. And you should have left it at that instead of going on because the truth is- it IS about what we "think"- because no matter how sure you think you might be about your beliefs- none of us know the "truth". Not you, Verna, not me, and not anyone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry
Do you forget you are on a "Christian" forum...? Well, you are...and this just happens to be very important to a Christian.
Yes, we know this is a christian forum. And an OPEN forum. And although people like Dewdrop and I are not christian, there are plenty of posts by christians on here that we don't take issue with, and even agree with.
And about this topic being "important"- there are only a few denominations of christians who think the hellfire and damnation/ET you speak of is of ANY remote importance or threat by which to fear daily and allow to consume and ruin one's happiness. Thank goodness.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry
I will continue to pursue with every breath in me the truth of God's beautiful Word, and His plans for my (a believer) eternal life...I want to be with Him...forever.
God Bless you.
In Christ's love, and prayerfully in His truth,
Verna.
Verna, I'm not trying to be mean, I'm just being honest when I say that save for your closing signature- I see absolutely nothing beautiful, nor loving in your posts. Perhaps your musings are beautiful to YOU- and no doubt they are, because it's an ongoing theme with you that you speak of all the everlasting heaven and love that YOU will enjoy...but you make darn sure always to point out the eternal torment that the rest of us who don't believe as you do will endure. And of course it's just my opinion, but it sure seems like you get some sort of pleasure out of doing so. But after being told countless times how you are making people feel, hopefully one day you'll become more selfless and try to affect and touch people using positivity instead of negativity. The latter doesn't work, if you haven't noticed. If you really want to "help" people like you say you do- you would be wise to change your approach.
And the only reason I really have a problem with your posts is the negativity you are spreading, and really only because although most of us can see right through it, there may be some people who stumble across your posts and may become upset or scared about what you're talking about. Not everyone is educated and/or worldly, and it pains me to think that there is any chance that someone who doesn't know any better might be swayed into believing in that which would only add an element of fear and unhappiness in their lives.
If you believe as you do, that's fine- however, if you are truly interested in being loving and spreading the BEAUTY of god's word, how about speaking of the joys of everlasting life, and stopping there? Or how about posting a thread about something positive and enlightening from the bible? There are plenty of such verses, and it would be refreshing if you would stop passing over those and share some of them instead of always finding the most horrible, hateful negative ones.
And with regard to your OP:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry
Fact:
In order for one to be alive and tormented eternally they must have eternal life.
But Jesus said:
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Question:
If Jesus gives His sheep eternal life then how do those who are not his sheep receive it?
That is the flaw in the Christian view of eternal torment. They say that we all have eternal life - some will spend it in Hell and the rest with Jesus. But Jesus said that He gives His sheep eternal life. How could Jesus give them what they already have? Obviously Jesus gives them what they do not already possess.
In Christ love...and prayerfully in His truth,
Verna.
Well, either you are contradicting yourself, or making things up and twisting what was very simply stated in the versus you provided. And based on your assertions, then those who are NOT jesus' "sheep" won't have everlasting life, so then neither christians, nor anyone who loves and follows jesus need to worry about the torment of hell! Either EVERYONE has eternal life and (according to you) some will spend it in hell, others will spend it in heaven. Or, jesus gives eternal life ONLY to his sheep/followers. So either way- there's certainly no indication that anyone will be going to hell. Of course since I love and do follow jesus (in that I think he was an amazing, loving, wise man who spoke of love and TRUE spirituality, and do my best to live in a way that he would appreciate) I'm all set in the eternal life department...though no doubt you'll correct me and make sure to tell me that I'm going to hell anyway...but before you do, please refer to the part that says "neither shall any man (or Verna ) pluck them out of my hand."
Helios666 - just one thing. Actually, Verna does not believe in eternal torment. She believes in annihiliation. So - she will be in heaven and everyone else will just be dead. Personally, I'm okay with that. I just don't see the point of all the threads and all the time spent on discussing what will happen to all the people who aren't Christians or who aren't the right kind of Christians. Like you said - why not spend more time on love and God and life? Why not spend more time loving and listening and learning and understanding and laughing? Laughter really is sublime!
Helios666 - just one thing. Actually, Verna does not believe in eternal torment. She believes in annihiliation. So - she will be in heaven and everyone else will just be dead. Personally, I'm okay with that. I just don't see the point of all the threads and all the time spent on discussing what will happen to all the people who aren't Christians or who aren't the right kind of Christians. Like you said - why not spend more time on love and God and life? Why not spend more time loving and listening and learning and understanding and laughing? Laughter really is sublime!
Ah, thank you for clarifying; I actually wasn't aware there was a difference between annihilation and eternal torment. Not that it so much matters to me other than I *do* want to have an understanding of such things...boy there are SO many peculiar facets to the varying christian beliefs! Anyway both sound pretty crummy, and are equally rotten subjects to broach! And neither are topics that deserve any attention, in my opinion.
I'm with you- laughter IS sublime! There is little that compares to the feeling of a good side-busting crack-up. THAT is joy, love and living in one single, concentrated action! And were I to believe in "the devil", no doubt Old Scratch sure knows how to bellow out a good guffaw like nobody's business...
Dewdrop and helios...it doesn't matter what either of you think. Neither of you are believers, so your opinions concerning how and what I should post or what the subject matter should be in your opinions, mean nothing to me.
If you don't like what I post, or the subjects I choose to post about, don't read them...and keep your opinions on what YOU think I should say and in what manner I should say them to yourselves. I'll post what I want to post, and I will choose in what manner I want to say them.
Dewdrop said:
"I know that you clearly dislike me and everything I say - and I know that you do not appreciate my thoughts or my posts on this forum."
I say:
Oh, so now you also know what is in my heart now do you...?
...ummmm ...if I'm not mistaken, I don't believe that up until this point, I've had anything to say to you regarding your posts...have I...? I could be wrong, so please show me where I have.
You have no idea what is in my heart, nor my motives for teaching it. You are very wrong in your assessment of me...God alone knows my heart, and my motives, and THAT! is all that matters.
I have no problem with the thoughts you post on this forum...allbeit they are not Christian...the only thing I do not appreciate is YOU telling ME how and what I should or should not post...you and helios and anyone else out there who feels the same...I don't care what you think I should or should not say or do...o.k.? Understand...? ...so carry on in fulfilling your earthly missions...and I will do the same, the way I choose to. Thank you.
helios said:
"And of course it's just my opinion, but it sure seems like you get some sort of pleasure out of doing so. But after being told countless times how you are making people feel, hopefully one day you'll become more selfless and try to affect and touch people using positivity instead of negativity. The latter doesn't work, if you haven't noticed. If you really want to "help" people like you say you do- you would be wise to change your approach."
Verna says:
helios, yes, it is your opinion, of which I really don't care about, coming from a non believer's point of view. I cannot help it if when the light of God's truth shines in upon your darkness...that it reveals ugly things that only you know about yourself and the life you live...I am not here to make friends. I was born to testify and be a witness to God's merciful, gracious, faithful, holy, fair and just ways...you see...I don't go around like UR'ers do and preach love, love, love...all you need is love...but if you live a life of sin, and die in it, it's o.k., you'll be saved anyway...nope, you won't hear that, (as you call it) "positivity" from me...if telling you the wonderful, POSITIVE! truth according to God's Word has a "negative" affect upon you...GOOD!...that's really good!...as it should.
...and none of what I do comes from hate or vengeance...it all comes from my love for you...we just have different ideas on what constitutes the real, painful but truthful, LOVE of God...of which you do not understand, being a non-believer...you, like so many others only want to hear what makes you "feel good"...and I am not about that, sorry.
Hebrews 4:12God's word is living and active. It is sharper than any two-edged sword and cuts as deep as the place where soul and spirit meet, the place where joints and marrow meet. God's word judges a person's thoughts and intentions.
Psalm 149:6May the praise of God be in their mouths and a double-edged sword in their hands,
Isaiah 49:2He made my mouth like a sharpened sword, in the shadow of his hand he hid me; he made me into a polished arrow and concealed me in his quiver.
Jeremiah 23:29"Is not my word like fire," declares the LORD, "and like a hammer that breaks a rock in pieces?
May God bless you.
Truly In Christ's love...and prayerfully in His truth,
Verna.
Last edited by Verna Perry; 10-02-2010 at 04:45 AM..
Dewdrop and helios...it doesn't matter what either of you think. Neither of you are believers, so your opinions concerning how and what I should post or what the subject matter should be in your opinions, mean nothing to me.
If you don't like what I post, or the subjects I choose to post about, don't read them...and keep your opinions on what YOU think I should say and in what manner I should say them to yourselves. I'll post what I want to post, and I will choose in what manner I want to say them.
Dewdrop said:
"I know that you clearly dislike me and everything I say - and I know that you do not appreciate my thoughts or my posts on this forum."
I say:
Oh, so now you also know what is in my heart now do you...?
...ummmm ...if I'm not mistaken, I don't believe that up until this point, I've had anything to say to you regarding your posts...have I...? I could be wrong, so please show me where I have.
You have no idea what is in my heart, nor my motives for teaching it. You are very wrong in your assessment of me...God alone knows my heart, and my motives, and THAT! is all that matters.
I have no problem with the thoughts you post on this forum...allbeit they are not Christian...the only thing I do not appreciate is YOU telling ME how and what I should or should not post...you and helios and anyone else out there who feels the same...I don't care what you think I should or should not say or do...o.k.? Understand...? ...so carry on in fulfilling your earthly missions...and I will do the same, the way I choose to. Thank you.
helios said:
"And of course it's just my opinion, but it sure seems like you get some sort of pleasure out of doing so. But after being told countless times how you are making people feel, hopefully one day you'll become more selfless and try to affect and touch people using positivity instead of negativity. The latter doesn't work, if you haven't noticed. If you really want to "help" people like you say you do- you would be wise to change your approach."
Verna says:
helios, yes, it is your opinion, of which I really don't care about, coming from a non believer's point of view. I cannot help it if when the light of God's truth shines in upon your darkness...that it reveals ugly things that only you know about yourself and the life you live...I am not here to make friends. I was born to testify and be a witness to God's merciful, gracious, faithful, holy, fair and just ways...you see...I don't go around like UR'ers do and preach love, love, love...all you need is love...but if you live a life of sin, and die in it, it's o.k., you'll be saved anyway...nope, you won't hear that, (as you call it) "positivity" from me...if telling you the wonderful, POSITIVE! truth according to God's Word has a "negative" affect upon you...GOOD!...that's really good!...as it should.
...and none of what I do comes hate or vengeance...it all comes from my love for you...we just have different ideas on what constitutes the real, painful but truthful, LOVE of God...of which you do not understand, being a non-believer...you, like so many others only want to hear what makes you "feel good"...and I am not about that, sorry.
Hebrews 4:12God's word is living and active. It is sharper than any two-edged sword and cuts as deep as the place where soul and spirit meet, the place where joints and marrow meet. God's word judges a person's thoughts and intentions.
Psalm 149:6May the praise of God be in their mouths and a double-edged sword in their hands,
Isaiah 49:2He made my mouth like a sharpened sword, in the shadow of his hand he hid me; he made me into a polished arrow and concealed me in his quiver.
Jeremiah 23:29"Is not my word like fire," declares the LORD, "and like a hammer that breaks a rock in pieces?
May God bless you.
Truly In Christ's love...and prayerfully in His truth,
Verna.
Verna, thank you for addressing my points. Of course while I support your right to post as you choose- I would also like to think that you support my, and everyone else's right to respond as we wish to that which you post- that IS the point of such a forum...how boring would it be if everyone agreed with you?
But let's face it, we both know darn well that when you post the types of things that you do, people are going to take issue with it. You expect it, and no doubt feed off of it. We all do, that's what this forum is about. And maybe people respond strongly to your posts moreso than other posts simply because of your approach which, again just isn't very pleasant! And that isn't just my opinion- please, be fair. You said yourself you're not here to 'make friends' nor say what makes people "feel good". Your words...
So I guess what it really boils down to is this:
As much as you think you speak what you speak out of what you say is "love for us", well- no matter how hard, and from what angle I look at it- I simply do not see even a SHRED of love within your posts. Now I'm only talking about what you're saying and how you say it- NOT your motivation. If you say your posts come from a loving place, and that you are sharing what YOU believe to be wonderful and loving- well, then I will respectfully believe you and take you at your word. I simply cannot wrap my head around that logically, and below is an example of why:
Jeremiah 23:29"Is not my word like fire," declares the LORD, "and like a hammer that breaks a rock in pieces?
May God bless you.
It is things such as the above that show such an EXTREME, as well as downright peculiar, and almost schizophrenic tinge that is the cause of my query.
You share a verse illustrating the wrath of god- but follow it up with a blessing from god? That is no less than utterly bizarre to me- and I am loathe to believe that you yourself cannot see that.
Honestly, it just makes me very curious as to what you personally believe and understand as "love", and how you think the message of love and light is best delivered and shared. Clearly you and I have VERY different understandings of what "love" is. I guess I just wasn't aware that love could be interpreted with such a vast and extreme difference by two human beings- and that something like believing in, or having a different view of faith or religion could itself be the reason for such a different interpretation of love.
And this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry
I cannot help it if when the light of God's truth shines in upon your darkness...that it reveals ugly things that only you know about yourself and the life you live..
God's truth *does* shine upon me, and WITHIN me, every single day, but not upon any sort of "darkness" because there is nothing about me or my life that is "dark" so long as I have, and keep strong within me the love and light of god (the way I PERSONALLY believe god to be, which is of course vastly different than how you, and many others believe god to be). And as per the last part of that statement; interesting, because we as humans tend to project outward that which is inside ourselves. A person who is unhappy and in a dark, and fearful place filled with their own brand of inner torment cannot help but project outwards all of the aforementioned. Likewise, those whose lives are touched and alive with life, love, and joy- well, that's what, and how they share.
On a jestful note- you remind me of the parent who, while spanking their child, says "this hurts me more than it hurts you"...
Verna, thank you for addressing my points. Of course while I support your right to post as you choose- I would also like to think that you support my, and everyone else's right to respond as we wish to that which you post- that IS the point of such a forum...how boring would it be if everyone agreed with you?
But let's face it, we both know darn well that when you post the types of things that you do, people are going to take issue with it. You expect it, and no doubt feed off of it. We all do, that's what this forum is about. And maybe people respond strongly to your posts moreso than other posts simply because of your approach which, again just isn't very pleasant! And that isn't just my opinion- please, be fair. You said yourself you're not here to 'make friends' nor say what makes people "feel good". Your words...
So I guess what it really boils down to is this:
As much as you think you speak what you speak out of what you say is "love for us", well- no matter how hard, and from what angle I look at it- I simply do not see even a SHRED of love within your posts. Now I'm only talking about what you're saying and how you say it- NOT your motivation. If you say your posts come from a loving place, and that you are sharing what YOU believe to be wonderful and loving- well, then I will respectfully believe you and take you at your word. I simply cannot wrap my head around that logically, and below is an example of why:
Jeremiah 23:29"Is not my word like fire," declares the LORD, "and like a hammer that breaks a rock in pieces?
May God bless you.
It is things such as the above that show such an EXTREME, as well as downright peculiar, and almost schizophrenic tinge that is the cause of my query.
You share a verse illustrating the wrath of god- but follow it up with a blessing from god? That is no less than utterly bizarre to me- and I am loathe to believe that you yourself cannot see that.
Honestly, it just makes me very curious as to what you personally believe and understand as "love", and how you think the message of love and light is best delivered and shared. Clearly you and I have VERY different understandings of what "love" is. I guess I just wasn't aware that love could be interpreted with such a vast and extreme difference by two human beings- and that something like believing in, or having a different view of faith or religion could itself be the reason for such a different interpretation of love.
And this:
God's truth *does* shine upon me, and WITHIN me, every single day, but not upon any sort of "darkness" because there is nothing about me or my life that is "dark" so long as I have, and keep strong within me the love and light of god (the way I PERSONALLY believe god to be, which is of course vastly different than how you, and many others believe god to be). And as per the last part of that statement; interesting, because we as humans tend to project outward that which is inside ourselves. A person who is unhappy and in a dark, and fearful place filled with their own brand of inner torment cannot help but project outwards all of the aforementioned. Likewise, those whose lives are touched and alive with life, love, and joy- well, that's what, and how they share.
On a jestful note- you remind me of the parent who, while spanking their child, says "this hurts me more than it hurts you"...
...no argument from me on this...surely some more will come unto Him.
KEY WORDS: "...God giving them the ability to RECEIVE it."
Many will not...they will not be His sheep...for His sheep hear His voice and KNOW Him, and follow Him.
In Christ's love...and prayerfully in His truth,
Verna.
Well now Verna...what are we poor unsaved souls to do if you believe the quote above?
If we haven't been given the ability what good does all your preaching at us do?
Guess we're just the unlucky ones,huh?
Well now Verna...what are we poor unsaved souls to do if you believe the quote above?
If we haven't been given the ability what good does all your preaching at us do?
Guess we're just the unlucky ones,huh?
The question isn't, "...what are YOU poor unsaved souls to do if I believe His Word."
The question is, "What are (in your own words) "you poor unsaved souls" to do if YOU do not believe His Word...?"
What you do not believe...or in other words...where you lack in having any faith is that you do not believe that Jesus has ALREADY! paid the price! He has ALREADY! done all He needs to do in order for anyone to have the power to oversome their sinful nature, and it's lustful desires. He said, "It is FINISHED!"...He said, "Come unto Me."...He said, "Seek Me, and you shall find Me."...He said, "Knock, and the door will be open."...He said, "Ask, and it shall be given unto you...pressed down, shaken together, and running over." ...
...in answer to your question, you must receive Him...into your heart, and believe in Him with all of your strength...with all of your heart, and with all of your mind if you want the ability His death gave you to be an overcomer of sin in your life...but you have to want to...receive Him that is. He's done. Now it is up to you to receive Him...or not. Your choice. If you do not...then yes...very, not "unlucky" (as you say), but very "unfortunate" for you, as luck has absolutely NOTHING! to do with it.
God Bless.
In Christ's love...and prayerfully in His truth,
Verna.
Verna
Let me repeat..
KEY WORDS: "...God giving them the ability to RECEIVE it."
Many on the CD forums alone,including me, have mentioned spending many years sincerely asking, seeking and praying for what others appeared to have with no results.
But even if we had not, the statement above...those key words....indicate that maybe we have been denied the ABILITY,yes?
Do you not understand the contradiction it creates?
Remember, it wasn't me that brought those 'key words' here ...you did.
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) pluck them out of my hand." 
...if I'm not mistaken, I don't believe that up until this point, I've had anything to say to you regarding your posts...have I...? I could be wrong, so please show me where I have.
...so carry on in fulfilling your earthly missions...and I will do the same, the way I choose to. Thank you. 
