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I am starting this thread for the purpose of countering the many lies, half-truths and misrepresentations of Latter-day Saint (i.e. Mormon or LDS) doctrine I see posted here on the Christianity forum every day. Thanks to the moderators here, most of these posts are caught and deleted. Still, it’s entirely possible that many of you read and believe what is posted before they are deleted. Often these posts are accompanied by the poster’s claim that he is doing nothing more than “revealing what Mormons believe.” If, however, Mormons really did believe what these posters are saying we do, we’d be the ones posting it.
I’ve been posting on this forum for quite some time now. None of you have ever seen me start a thread with the intent to bash another Christian denomination or respond to someone else’s post by taking one simple comment someone made and using it as a springboard from which launch an attack against his religion. But that happens almost daily with respect to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Ideas and beliefs are challenged all the time on this forum. That’s the nature of debate. It doesn’t bother me in the slightest to have my beliefs questioned, challenged and even criticized. What bothers me is having my beliefs described inaccurately time and time again by the same individuals. It doesn’t seem to matter how many times I correct these people, they continue to post the same negative nonsense. And they expect you to believe it. Maybe you do believe it.
Awhile back, a public opinion poll revealed how little the average person really knows about what Mormons believe. An article interpreting the results of the poll said something I found really interesting:
“Several things are contributing to the current antagonism towards… Mormons, but the dominant factors are ignorance of [Mormon] beliefs and the fear that is generated when people do not have the facts. Rumors begin easily in an atmosphere of ignorance… even in this age of quick access to information. In fact, this abundance of information at the world’s fingertips may actually work against [the Church]. In a slower-paced era, people could entertain most new ideas that came along. However, in our fast-paced day, when people are bombarded with stimuli, they resort to a form of triage to select which among an avalanche of ideas they will pay attention to. As a first step in this sorting process, they do not ask what positive attributes merit their attention as much as they ask whether there is anything in the idea that justifies rejecting it. In other words, they look for negatives first as a quick way to dispose of less worthy claims on their time.”
When rumors and falsehoods precede the truth, the judgment process is tilted against Mormonism before members of the Church even have a fair chance to explain their beliefs.
Another LDS poster started a thread a short time ago, offering to answer questions about our beliefs. A few posters immediately launched in with all of the things Mormons supposedly believe, and efforts to respond to these statements went ignored. When the moderators stepped in and said that the denominational bashing must stop, all posting stopped. The only people interested in posting were the ones who were interesting in slinging mud. Nobody had any actual questions. Seriously, I think people are just a little bit afraid to ask questions. After all, who would want anybody to think they really were interested in learning more about Mormonis?
Well, I’m open to questions, not that I’m holding my breath expecting to get any. What I intend to do as I patiently wait, is post responses to some of the criticisms that are constantly being made against us, describing doctrines that may or may not be true. In some cases, the doctrine described is actually accurate, but it is worded in such a way as to make it abhorrent to non-LDS Christians. In other cases, the doctrine described bears some resemblance to what we actually teach but contains enough half-truths to distort it. Other times, what is presented as “doctrine” really isn’t doctrine and never has been. An idea may have been taught for a period of time, but never really was more than speculation or the personal opinion of the person who taught it. Other statements are taken out of context. When understood within the overall context of the Church’s teachings, this is clear to see. Sometimes the truth is told, but it is not the whole truth. Just enough information is omitted to cause the teaching to be shocking or offensive. Sometimes parody, satire and intentional exaggeration are involved.
It is not nor has it ever been my intent to proselytize, but I am through sitting back and ignoring the lies that are being perpetuated against my Church and its teachings. From here on out, I am going to respond in this thread to every single one of these lies, half-truths and misrepresentations. Maybe nobody will care enough to read my posts, but if even a few people do, it will have been worth it to me.
My first response to something posted yesterday will be coming within a short time.
This, as I stated, is a very common accusation leveled against Mormons. We believe that all human beings are the offspring of God and that He is the Father of our spirits. (See Acts 17:29 and Hebrews 12:9 if you doubt these doctrines to be biblical.) Unlike traditional Christians, we believe that all of us lived in God's presence prior to being born. (We were spirit beings at that time, without bodies of flesh and bones.) As the spirit sons and daughters of God, we were all brothers and sisters to each other. One of these spirits was named Lucifer. He was a proud and rebellious son who sought to exalt himself above his Father and who was cast out of Heaven for attempting to do so.
Unique among all the sons of God was the one we know as Jesus Christ. Unlike the rest of us, He was with His Father in the beginning. Unlike us, He was perfect in every conceivable way and had all of the divine attributes and qualities His Father had. The shared a unity of will and purpose to such an extent that together, they were known (along with the Holy Ghost) as God. Finally, even though we were all the spirit offspring of our Father in Heaven, Jesus Christ was also His Father's "Only Begotten" Son. Under His Father's direction, Jesus Christ created our universe. He was chosen prior to His birth in Bethlehem to be the lamb who would be slain for our sins. When Lucifer was cast out of Heaven, he was disowned by his Father, and lost his right to ever again be known as a son of God (or a brother to God's Only Begotten, our Savior, Jesus Christ).
So that's our belief. Regardless of whether you agree or disagree with it, you must admit that it does not contradict anything the Bible has to say, since the Bible is 100% silent as to the relationship between Jesus and Lucifer. Furthermore, nothing Lucifer did is in any way a reflection on Jesus Christ. The idea that -- if they were indeed brothers -- Lucifer's rebellion makes Jesus Christ anything less than perfect, is utter nonsense and rationally inexplicable.
Do Mormons believe that Jesus was just a man who "worked His way up to godhood"?
I don't know how this rumor even got started. It has absolutely no basis in truth. We believe that Jesus Christ is, always has been, and always will be the divine Son of a divine Father. He was, as John tells us, with His Father in the beginning. He was "God" in the beginning (though He definitely wasn't the same individual as His Father). Under His Father's direction, He created our universe, forming the world upon which He would later walk (an impossibility if He attained godhood at some later time). He did not "attain godhood" when He was baptized, at His Transfiguration or upon being the first individual ever to be resurrected. There has never been a time when He did not have every one of the divine attributes He has today.
Good posts Katzpur....I guess there are some questions that I have but honestly, like I've told you before, I just don't know that much about Mormonism. My questions are why do Mormons believe in polygamy and why is Joseph Smith put on a pedestal? After all, he was just a man and I have trouble with the fact that he wrote an "extra bible" if you will, in addition to the Holy Bible. I don't mean to offend if that's what I'm doing, just a couple of things that trouble me.
Do Mormons reject Jesus Christ's sacrifice and believe they can earn their way to Heaven with their works?
Absolutely not. The Book of Mormon teaches, as does the Bible, that there is only one way a person can be reconciled to God and that is through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. There is nothing any of us could conceivably do to save ourselves. Aside from Jesus Christ, there has never been another living soul who has lived a perfect life and is worthy of returning to God's presence. The most righteous, most obedient, most faithful people to have ever lived would be in exactly the same position as the most wicked were it not for our Savior's willingness to take upon Himself the guilt for our sins.
We believe that it is incumbent upon each of us to have faith in Him as our Redeemer, to repent of our sins, to be baptized, to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, and to endure to the end as a humble follower of our Lord. We covenant with Jesus Christ when we are baptized to take His name upon ourselves and to do the best we can to obey our Father in Heaven's commandments. Whenever we fall short, we must repent, and as we do, God will forget our sins. To us, salvation is not an event, but a process.
We are also essentially universalists with regards to our belief in what will happen to humanity in the afterlife. Mormons believe in what is probably the biggest heaven and littlest hell of any Christian denomination in the world today. We could not possibly believe in a works-based salvation and in universal reconciliation, as some have said we do. The two are mutually exclusive.
Good posts Katzpur....I guess there are some questions that I have but honestly, like I've told you before, I just don't know that much about Mormonism.
You're not alone, Ilene. You're just one of the few who will actually admit it. I'd be happy to answer your questions. I'm going to do so in the same format as I started out with, though. I hope that's okay. In other words, I'll take the questions one at a time.
Why do Mormons believe in polygamy?
We believe that polygamy, or plural marriage, as we often call it, is an “eternal principle” that is practiced only when God authorizes it for His own purposes and that is strictly forbidden at all other times.
You are no doubt aware that a number of the Old Testament prophets had many wives. Abraham is perhaps the best known of these, although I could name several others. I have heard people say that God just “turned a blind eye” to Abraham’s plural marriages, that while He did not actually condemn the practice, He definitely did not approve of it. That’s certainly not what I have come to expect of God. Had He really disapproved of Abraham’s multiple marriages, I think we can be certain He would have spoken up. But He didn’t. He never once condemned Abraham. As a matter of fact, I cannot think of a single person in the Old Testament God chose to bless more than He did Abraham. He blessed him specifically because he was obedient.
According to the Church’s official site, “In 1831, Church founder Joseph Smith made a prayerful inquiry about the ancient Old Testament practice of plural marriage. This resulted in the divine instruction to reinstitute the practice as a religious principle.” The practice was officially announced in 1852 (although a few plural marriages took place before that date) and was officially discontinued about 40 years later. But why would God have commanded Joseph to institute a practice that initially appears to contradict that which we read in 1 Timothy 3 (which teaches that monogamy is God's will)?
In the Book of Mormon, we read (the italics are mine), “Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none; For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts. Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes. For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.
Here the Lord is stressing (I don’t think that’s too strong a word) that monogamy should be the general rule and should be observed at all times except when He specifically commands His people for the purpose of “raising up seed” to Him. In other words, it appears that he commands the practice only at times when a righteous man’s progeny (children dedicated to honoring and serving the Lord) would not increase as quickly as the Lord wishes it to. We believe this to have been the case in the early days of Mormonism. When the Church was founded in 1830, there were just six members. It grew quickly, but the members were persecuted to a degree that the average American is oblivious to. (Did you know, for instance, that ours is the only religion in the United States that has ever had an official "extermination order" issued against it? In fact, it was legal to kill a Mormon anywhere in Missouri until as recently as 1976.) At any rate, hypothetically speaking, if this new church was, in fact, the re-establishment of ancient Christianity as it has always claimed to be, it would have been critical that its numbers increase at least as quickly as possible, so that within even a couple of generations, the likelihood that it disappear altogether would be significantly reduced.
Today anyone who is found to be in a polygamous relationship is excommunicated. There are no extenuating circumstances. The "Mormon polygamists" you may see in the news from time to time are not members of our Church, but of offshoot groups. They are not in any way affiliated with us nor are we with them.
Why do Mormons put Joseph Smith on a pedestal? After all, he was just a man and I have trouble with the fact that he wrote an "extra bible" if you will, in addition to the Holy Bible.
I'm sure it must seem to people outside our Church that we put him on a pedestal. I guess to some extent we do, but its one he shares with Moses, Abraham, Noah, Isaiah, Peter, and many of the other biblical prophets. It seems funny to me, as a Mormon to realize that relatively few people even know the single most fundamental belief of our Church. In a nutshell, this is it: Jesus Christ established a Church as part of His ministry. He gave Peter the "keys" (or authority) to direct His Church once He ascended into Heaven and was no longer physically with His followers. After the deaths of the Apostles, men changed the doctrines of the Church. Error crept in and the purity and simplicity of the doctrines was corrupted. This, of course, did not happen overnight, but it did happen. We believe that it was through Joseph Smith that Jesus Christ reestablished His Church in 1830, restoring the doctrines that had been lost or misinterpreted over time. We refer to Joseph Smith as the "Prophet of the Restoration." He was not, however, the last prophet to lead the Church. It is led today by the 16th person to hold that role, a man by the name of Thomas S. Monson. We love and admire all of the men who have served as prophets over the years, both in biblical times and today. We do not see any of them as being anything other than fallible men, but we do acknowledge their service to the Lord and to their fellow human beings.
The Book of Mormon is not really "an extra Bible," even though I can understand why people not of our faith would call it that. We definitely do accept the Holy Bible as the word of God. It ranks as foremost among our Church’s “Standard Works”, or four books which comprise the LDS canon. On the other hand, we do not believe that the Bible is the sole word of God. We believe that God has said much more than has been assembled in that single volume and that He is still not through speaking to us. The Bible, of course, contains both the Old Testament and the New Testament, the New Testament being a witness to the divine mission of Jesus Christ. The Book of Mormon is yet another testament of Jesus Christ, another witness to His divinity and to His role as Savior of the world. It is the history, both religious and secular of several groups of people whom we believe we led by God to the American continent in ancient times. By far the largest portion of the book describes two civilizations, the Nephites and the Lamanites, who were both descendents of the House of Israel, and who lived on this continent between about 600 B.C. and 400 A.D. (Joseph Smith, I should mention at this time, was not the writer but the translator.)
When Jesus Christ spoke to his followers in the Holy Land, He is recorded in the Gospel of John as having said, “Other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.” Note: He said they would hear His voice, not merely His message as it would be relayed by others. He also said that His own personal mission was only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. So who were the “other sheep” of whom He spoke, people who were evidently not living in the Holy Land but who were, at the same time, of the house of Israel? We believe they were the people whose story is told in the Book of Mormon. After Christ’s resurrection, he stayed among his Apostles and others for a time. But, according to the Book of Mormon, before He returned to heaven where He now awaits the time of His Second Coming, He visited the people of ancient America. He established His Church here, teaching exactly the same gospel of love, forgiveness and mercy He had taught in the Holy Land.
The Book of Mormon is an account of a 1000-year history of some of the people of ancient America, and includes a number of chapters which describe in some detail Jesus Christ’s ministry among those people. It does not contradict or supplant anything in the Bible. Rather it complements and clarifies many of the doctrines to which the Bible alludes but is not entirely clear. Its purpose is literally to prove the Bible to be true, and, as stated on the title page of the book is “to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ.”
Let me just quote a few brief verses from it, in which it addresses the question you have posed about "an extra Bible."
From 2 Nephi 29:7-11 "Know ye not that there are more nations than one? Know ye not that I, the Lord your God, have created all men, and that I remember those who are upon the isles of the sea; and that I rule in the heavens above and in the earth beneath; and I bring forth my word unto the children of men, yea, even upon all the nations of the earth?
Wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word? Know ye not that the testimony of two nations is a witness unto you that I am God, that I remember one nation like unto another? Wherefore, I speak the same words unto one nation like unto another. And when the two nations shall run together the testimony of the two nations shall run together also.
And I do this that I may prove unto many that I am the same yesterday, today, and forever; and that I speak forth my words according to mine own pleasure. And because that I have spoken one word ye need not suppose that I cannot speak another; for my work is not yet finished; neither shall it be until the end of man, neither from that time henceforth and forever.
Wherefore, because that ye have a Bible ye need not suppose that it contains all my words; neither need ye suppose that I have not caused more to be written.
For I command all men, both in the east and in the west, and in the north, and in the south, and in the islands of the sea, that they shall write the words which I speak unto them; for out of the books which shall be written I will judge the world, every man according to their works, according to that which is written."
If you are a good Mormon, do you get to be a God on another planet?
Well, that would be a huge oversimplification of LDS doctrine. But then we do believe that with God, nothing is impossible. It's entirely possible, and well within the teachings of Mormonism, that you, as a good Catholic, could do so, too.
This question concerns what the Latter-day Saints call the doctrine of Eternal Progression, which is exactly what the name implies -- the belief that God has made it possible for His sons and daughters to continue to learn and progress quite literally forever.
Before we get down to the nitty-gritty, let's let's clear up two big, big misconceptions:
(1) We do not believe that any of us will ever be equal to God, our Eternal Father in Heaven. He will always be our God and we will always worship Him.
(2) Nothing we could possibly do on our own could exalt us to the level of deity. It is only through the will and grace of God that man is given this potential.
We believe, as you may know, that ours is the re-established Church Jesus Christ established during His ministry here on earth. It would follow, then, that we believe we are teaching the same doctrines as were taught then and accepted by Jesus’ followers. Throughout the New Testament, there are indications that this doctrine (known as deification or exaltation) is not one the Latter-day Saints invented, but that the earliest Christians understood and believed it, as well.
Romans 8:16-17, 2 Peter 1:4, Revelation 2:26-27 and Revelation 3:21 are the four I like best. Through these verses, we learn that, as children of God, we may also be His heirs, joint-heirs with Christ, even glorified with Him. We might partake of the nature of divinity and be allowed to sit with our Savior on His throne, to rule over the nations.
Now, if these promises are true, what do they all boil down to? To the Latter-day Saints, they mean that we have the potential to someday, be “godlike.” One of our prophets explained that "we are gods in embryo." If our Father is divine and we are literally his "offspring", as the Bible teaches we are, is it really such a stretch of the imagination to believe that he has endowed each of us with a spark of divinity?
There is considerable evidence that the doctrine of deification was taught for quite some time after the Savior’s death, and accepted as orthodox. Some of the most well-known and respected of the early Christian Fathers made statements that were remarkably close to the statements LDS leaders have made. For example:
In the second century, Saint Irenaeus said, “If the Word became a man, it was so men may become gods.” He also posed this question: “Do we cast blame on Him (God) because we were not made gods from the beginning, but were at first created merely as men, and than later as Gods?”
At about the same period of time, Saint Clement made this statement: “The Word of God became a man so that you might learn from a man how to become a god.”
And Saint Justin Martyr agreed, saying that men are “deemed worthy of becoming gods and of having power to become sons of the highest.”
Some two centuries later, Athanasius explained that “the Word was made flesh in order that we might be enabled to be made gods. He became man that we might be made divine.”
And, finally, Augustine, said, “But He that justifies also deifies, for by justifying he makes sons of God. For he has given them power to become the sons of God. If then we have been made sons of God, we have also been made gods.”
Much more recently, the noted Christian theologian, C.S. Lewis, said much the same thing in his book "Mere Christianity." This particular quote is really worth paying attention to. It expresses the belief that mankind's potential is far greater than most of us realize and is almost to the letter how a Mormon would explain the doctrine:
“The command Be ye perfect is not idealistic gas. Nor is it a command to do the impossible. He is going to make us into creatures that can obey that command. He said (in the Bible) that we were “gods” and He is going to make good His words. If we let Him – for we can prevent Him, if we choose – He will make the feeblest and filthiest of us into a god or goddess, dazzling, radiant, immortal creature, pulsating all through with such energy and joy and wisdom and love as we cannot now imagine, a bright stainless mirror which reflects back to God perfectly (though, of course, on a smaller scale) His own boundless power and delight and goodness. The process will be long and in parts very painful; but that is what we are in for. Nothing less. He meant what He said."
Finally, according to The Westminster Dictionary of Christian Theology, “Deification (Greek theosis) is for Orthodoxy the goal of every Christian. Man, according to the Bible, is made in the image and likeness of God…. It is possible for man to become like God, to become deified, to become god by grace.”
Hi Kat...we have a few questions...
1. Were you born into Mormonism, or did you "convert" ?
2. Do you agree with the doctrinal view which says that Jesus Christ is the
Archangel Michael ?
...The Blessings of The Eternal One bring you joy...
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