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Many believe that when the Mormon Church had a "revelation" that Blacks could become priests, it was really to protect their Tax-Exempt 503(c) status. There seems to be some legitimacy to that. So the Mormon church was wrong about that up until that point and then they received a revelation. How do you come to terms with things like this:
Joseph Fielding Smith (10th LDS President) wrote the following:
"There is a reason why one man is born black and with other disadvantages, while another is born white with great advantage. The reason is that we once had an estate before we came here, and were obedient, more or less, to the laws that were given us there. Those who were faithful in all things there received greater blessings here, and those who were not faithful received less.... There were no neutrals in the war in heaven. All took sides either with Christ or with Satan. Every man had his agency there, and men receive rewards here based upon their actions there, just as they will receive rewards hereafter for deeds done in the body. The Negro, evidently, is receiving the reward he merits."
Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.1, pages 66-67
I am fully aware that Catholic popes have done some dumb things, but the doctrine has stayed true. But this is doctrinal racism. How can you explain away that church was completely doctrinally racist for about 100 years or even longer if you believe the Mormon timeline of events? Do you think Jesus was racist?
And what this concept of a prior to life "estate" (pre-existence)?
2 Nephi 5:21 “And he had caused the acursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.”
And the example of Lemuel who did not choose the right and became dark.
Another question: How do you reconcile absolutely no archaelogical or historical evidence for anything written in the Book of Mormon. How about a pot from a mentioned ancient city? Ancient cities in the Americas, fact or fiction?
To add to this.. why have both National Geographic and the Smithsonian Institute rejected the Book of Mormon as being archaeologically reliable?
Last edited by CantWait2Leave; 10-07-2010 at 10:44 AM..
Why did Bruce McConkie say, "Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers" (Mormon Doctrine page 547)? "God had sexual relations with Mary to make the body of Jesus" (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 4, 1857, p. 218; vol. 8, p. 115). "The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood - was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers," (Journal of Discourses, vol. 8, p. 115).
I'm assuming they said what they did because that's what they believed. They were, after all, fallible human beings, and not gods. They were stating their opinions and not LDS doctrine.
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This is very different than what you wrote above. Why is that?
What I quoted was LDS doctrine. What those two individuals stated was not only very different from what I wrote; it was very different from what has been taught throughout the history of the Church. It's what hundreds and hundreds of LDS leaders have said for nearly two hundred years. If given the choice between believing one of the two following statements, which do you think Latter-day Saints will believe?
A. Jesus was conceived through sexual intercourse between God and Mary (as believed by McConkie and Young).
B. Jesus was begotten in some miraculous way which has never been revealed, and was born to a virgin (as believed by hundreds of LDS leaders and as is taught in the scriptures).
If the principle of "progression" is eternally true, why is it that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not gods of their own worlds?
They are. They, along with God the Father, comprise the Godhead of our world and our universe.
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Also, if Moroni devoutly practiced the Mormon Gospel, why is he an angel now rather than a God?
I didn't know Moroni was a Mormon. He is an angel because angels are God's messengers and, as an angel, he is fulfilling an important role. You appear not to understand the principle of eternal progression. Nobody attains godhood overnight. God may very well exalt Moroni at some point in the distant future. Check back with me in 10 billion years, okay?
Another question: How do you reconcile absolutely no archaelogical or historical evidence for anything written in the Book of Mormon.
Well, I guess I'd start by telling you you're looking at the wrong sources. While it's true that the archeological evidence uncovered so far is not compelling, the linguistic and cultural evidence is quite remarkable.
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How about a pot from a mentioned ancient city?
Uh... You're thinking along the lines of something inscribed on the bottom with the words, "Made in Zarahemla"? A lot of pots have been found. How on earth would you expect to be able to identify a pot as Nephite in origin?
Many believe that when the Mormon Church had a "revelation" that Blacks could become priests, it was really to protect their Tax-Exempt 503(c) status. There seems to be some legitimacy to that.
Not if you know the facts, there doesn't. The Church was in no danger of losing its tax-exempt status. Your church and mine have both historically withheld the priesthood from women. Why haven't either of them lost their tax-exempt status over "sexist doctrine"?
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How do you come to terms with things like this:
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Joseph Fielding Smith (10th LDS President) wrote the following:
"There is a reason why one man is born black and with other disadvantages, while another is born white with great advantage. The reason is that we once had an estate before we came here, and were obedient, more or less, to the laws that were given us there. Those who were faithful in all things there received greater blessings here, and those who were not faithful received less.... There were no neutrals in the war in heaven. All took sides either with Christ or with Satan. Every man had his agency there, and men receive rewards here based upon their actions there, just as they will receive rewards hereafter for deeds done in the body. The Negro, evidently, is receiving the reward he merits."
Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.1, pages 66-67
I come to terms with it by recognizing that Joseph Fielding Smith was a man who made mistakes, just like every other man who has ever lived (except Christ, of course).
When I read statements like that, I look to what another prophet, Gordon B. Hinckley, said not that long ago:
"I remind you that no man who makes disparaging remarks concerning those of another race can consider himself a true disciple of Christ. Nor can he consider himself to be in harmony with the teachings of the Church of Christ."
As a young boy, President Hinckley once made a disparaging remark about a Black family. His mother overheard him. Here's what he had to say about their conversation: "She gave us to understand, in no uncertain terms, that among the peoples of the Earth there is neither inferiority nor superiority, that we are all sons and daughters of God, and that we have an obligation to respect and help one another. I have never forgotten that simple lesson. I have carried it all my life, and across the world."
As I said before, we are products of our environment and culture. Racism is a learned behavior. It's unfortunate, but true. No single church has a monopoly on it.
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I am fully aware that Catholic popes have done some dumb things, but the doctrine has stayed true.
Dumb doesn't even begin to describe some of the things they've done.
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But this is doctrinal racism. How can you explain away that church was completely doctrinally racist for about 100 years or even longer if you believe the Mormon timeline of events?
According to David O. McKay, President of the Church when I was born, "There is not now, and there never has been a doctrine in this Church that the Negroes are under a divine curse. There is no doctrine in the Church of any kind pertaining to the Negro. 'We believe' that we have a scriptural percedent for withholding the Priesthood from the Negro. It is a practice, not a doctrine, and the practice someday will be changed. And that's all there is to it."
When people don't understand or make a distinction between a practice and a doctrine, it can be confusing. My own opinion is that the practice was put into place back in Brigham Young's day. I'm not going to pass judgment on him. I know that people are the products of their environment. The environment of Brigham Young's day was decidedly racist. He was a man who had his own opinions and his own prejudices. I don't personally believe that there is anything in our Standard Works that would justify the Priesthood having been withheld from Black men. I believe it was a practice instituted independently of revelation from God. Please keep in mind that this is my opinion. I know of other Latter-day Saints who are like-minded and still others who are not.
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Do you think Jesus was racist?
Not if you can believe this (emphasis mine): And again, the Lord God hath commanded that men should not murder; that they should not lie; that they should not steal; that they should not take the name of the Lord their God in vain; that they should not envy; that they should not have malice; that they should not contend one with another; that they should not commit whoredoms; and that they should do none of these things; for whoso doeth them shall perish. For none of these iniquities come of the Lord; for he doeth that which is good among the children of men; and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile. (2 Nephi 26:32-33)
And what this concept of a prior to life "estate" (pre-existence)?[/quote]
Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe that prior to our earthly existence we lived as spirit children of Heavenly Parents. We did not have physical bodies at that time, but were conscious entities with feelings and personalities. In His perfect wisdom, God knew that were we to remain forever in His presence, we would be unable to progress beyond where we were at that time and would not be able to reach our potential as sons and daughters of deity. He therefore prepared a world in which we could experience mortality. It would be a place where we would be subject to physical temptations, as well as disease, aging and ultimately death. It would be a place where we could be tested, where we could learn to walk by faith. It would be a place where we could be part of a family unit and where we could find the companionship of an eternal partner. God promised to never abandon us, but He would cause a veil of forgetfulness to restrict our memory of our heavenly home during our time here on earth.
Because our Heavenly Father loved each of us so perfectly, it was His desire that we be given the choice as to whether or not we wanted to participate in this great adventure. He called us all together and explained to us what we have come to know as the "Plan of Salvation." We were all given to understand that our sojourn on earth would not be particularly easy. We realized that we would be tempted to disobey His will and that, sooner or later, each and every one of us would make choices that would distance us from Him. But, how then would we have the reassurance that we would not remain separated from Him forever?
One of our spirit brothers, a rebellious, arrogant son of God known as Lucifer, "son of the morning" presumptuously stepped forward to offer his "services" on our behalf. He would, he explained, save us all. He would make sure that not one of us was lost, but that all would return to our Heavenly Father's presence. There were, however, two "gotchas": (1) We would not be granted our agency (or free will) and would consequently be denied the blessings associated with learning to choose good over evil, and (2) He would gain all of the glory for having successfully "saved" all of his spirit siblings. Exaltation and honor would be his and his alone.
Knowing that this was not in any way the plan His Father had in mind, God's firstborn spirit child (we know Him as Jesus) responded, "Here am I. Send me." Like His Father, this Son was perfect in every regard. He had been with His Father from "the beginning" and had, in fact, under His Father's direction, created the Earth that was to be our new home. He stood and, in complete contrast to Lucifer, offered to be the means by which we might be forgiven the sins we would invariably commit, and return to live with God throughout eternity. Unlike Lucifer, Jesus was "one in will and purpose" with His Father and supported His Father's decision to allow each of us to have our free agency. We would be given commandments, and would be instructed by living prophets as to what God expected of us, but we would have the opportunity to choose for ourselves whether to obey or not. As mortals, we would undoubtedly not be up to the challenge of living perfectly righteous lives, but because He loved us far beyond our ability to comprehend, He would willingly offer Himself as a sacrifice for our sins, provided we would acknowledge His hand and do our best to follow the example He would set during His own time on Earth. Most importantly, He wanted none of the glory Himself, but insisted instead that it all be His Father's.
A war ensued between those who aligned themselves with Lucifer and those who chose to follow Jesus (under the leadership of the Archangel Michael). Fully one third of the host of heaven rebelled against their Heavenly Father and, as a result, were cast out of heaven with their spirit brother, Lucifer. They would be known forever more as "Sons of Perdition" and would spend all of their days seeking to draw God's other children into a state such as their own. Salvation would be eternally denied to all of them.
God, our Heavenly Father, accepted the offer of His Firstborn, Jesus, and the Plan of Salvation was put into motion. One by one, each of His spirit children would be born to earthly parents and would experience mortality. Each would gain a physical body and each would be tried and tested. Some would leave His presence sooner than others. Michael, who became known thereafter as Adam, was the first to go, along with the woman, Eve, who was to become Adam's wife. Others, including Jesus Christ, would not come to earth for several thousand more years. And finally, the rest (you and I) would wait until the "last days." But each would have his or her turn here on earth.
I think Mormons and Christians in Christianity alike suffer from the fear of comitting blasphemy against the Holy Ghost so they have to come up with ways to say they don't because they have the idea that something termed unforgivable means eternal damnation.
If the Holy spirit has more to do than enable someone to accept Christ, then there is other times in which blasphemy of the holy ghost can take place and I think everyone has comitted it.
With that said, what is the Mormon view of what happens to someone who actually does commit it?
We believe that almost everyone who has ever lived will eventually be welcomed into Heaven. This would include some of the most wicked and depraved human beings who have ever lived. I should point out that we believe in three distinct kingdoms within Heaven, also referred to as "degrees of glory," the highest or Celestial Kingdom as having the glory of the sun, the middle or Terrestrial Kingdom as having the glory of the moon, and the lowest or Telestial has having the glory of the stars. I can go into this in greater detail if you'd like. For now, it's just a preface to my answer to your question.
We believe that those who commit the unforgivable sin will be cast out to the realms of "Outer Darkness." One of may favorite LDS authors (who is with the Church's Public Relations Department) put it this way in a book he wrote about Mormonism for non-Mormons:
"Such will likely be few. Hell, in the end, will be a tiny, forgotten corner of the universe. The great God will find no solace in the path these few have chosen. They were His children. Yet all has been offered: light, strength, repentence, help, knowledge, and a grace sufficient to cover all sins should each of them merely have sought forgiveness and a better way. They simply weren't interested. None of them would be happy in Heaven anyway, and perhaps their self-inflicted misery is their only reward for having tried mortality."
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He is an angel because angels are God's messengers and, as an angel, he is fulfilling an important role. You appear not to understand the principle of eternal progression. Nobody attains godhood overnight. God may very well exalt Moroni at some point in the distant future. Check back with me in 10 billion years, okay?
Dumb doesn't even begin to describe some of the things they've done. 
