The Truth about Mormonism Revealed at Last! (Epistles, believer, exodus)

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Enow

We cannot be His offsprings. Only Jesus was conceived by the Holy Ghost. Everybody else has a father and a mother on earth.

Acts 17:28 says we are, and Hebrews 12:9 says He is the Father of spirits. But don't misunderstand me. I agree that Jesus Christ is the "Only Begotten Son." He is God's only Son -- with a capital "S", that is. We are God's spirit offspring. He is the Father of our spirits. Our earthly parents are the fathers and mothers of our physical bodies.

Incidentally, Mormons believe that God the Father is the father of Jesus Christ, not the Holy Ghost. When Jesus was baptized, the Holy Ghost descended in the form of a dove, but there was a voice from Heaven which referred to Jesus as "my beloved Son." That was the Father speaking, not the Holy Ghost.

[Enow]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

Acts 17:28 says we are, and Hebrews 12:9 says He is the Father of spirits. But don't misunderstand me. I agree that Jesus Christ is the "Only Begotten Son." He is God's only Son -- with a capital "S", that is. We are God's spirit offspring. He is the Father of our spirits. Our earthly parents are the fathers and mothers of our physical bodies.

Acts 17:28For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. 29Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

I stand corrected since we are all descendents of Adam whom is the son of God thus an offspring, but...what differentiates believers from non-believers is this:

Galatians 3: 14That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. ....26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Romans 8: 9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Incidentally, Mormons believe that God the Father is the father of Jesus Christ, not the Holy Ghost. When Jesus was baptized, the Holy Ghost descended in the form of a dove, but there was a voice from Heaven which referred to Jesus as "my beloved Son." That was the Father speaking, not the Holy Ghost.

This is where the Oneness of God comes in.

Matthew 1:20But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

Matthew 10:18And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles. 19But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. 20For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

So God is the Father to Jesus.

[Katzpur]

Do Mormons believe that God lives on "the Star-base, Kolob"?

This is one that always makes me laugh. I am simply amazed that people actually think we believe this stuff. This is a perfect example of what happens when people take something we actually believe, put their own spin on it and then try to pass it off as Mormon doctrine. Here's what we believe...

Here's what we believe:

1. There is a God.
2. He lives in Heaven.
3. Heaven is a real place.
4. There are stars in the heavens and one of them is closer to where God is than the rest.
5. That star has a name -- Kolob -- by which God refers to it.
6. We have no idea where Kolob might be and don't care.

Sorry the truth is so much less interesting than the embellished version.

[Katzpur]

Do Mormons believe in a multi-leveled heaven, that only Mormons get to go to the top Heaven, while everybody else (like Ghandi and Mother Teresa) will be sent to the "ghetto heaven"? Isn't that pretty egocentric?

We do believe in a Heaven comprised of three different "degrees of glory." In 1 Corinthians 15:40-42, Paul describes these:

There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead.

The entire chapter concerns the resurrection, so it is quite logical to think that he was describing what Heaven would be like. Elsewhere, Stephen spoke of his vision of the third Heaven, where God was. Obviously, there could not be a third Heaven without there being a first and second Heaven, too. I've heard various explanations of what the first and second Heavens are, but none have made as much sense to me as Paul's explanation.

As to who will end up where, it is definitely not going to be "Mormons at the top and everybody else in the ghetto." To begin with, there aren't going to be any denominations in Heaven. Naturally, those individuals who were the most faithful in keeping God's commandments will end up with a greater reward than those who were less obedient. After all, Jesus Christ said that He would "reward every man according to his works." If that is the case, what might He have meant? If some were to gain a greater reward than others, would that mean getting a gold halo as opposed to a silver one? A nicer set of wings? A new harp as opposed to a used one? The Mormons believe that the greater the obedience, the greater the rewards. And the greatest reward of all is to live forever in God's presence in the Celestial Kingdom, where the glory is like that of the sun.

Unlike other Christians, we don't believe that when this mortal life ends, the chance to learn and grow and make choices ends. What kind of a God would send someone to Hell who never had the opportunity to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ during his or her lifetime? What about the little girl who grew up in 2nd century China, long before Christianity had spread to that part of the world? What kind of God would condemn that child (or even adult) to an eternity in some kind of a lake of fire for something over which he or she had no control? We certainly don't believe God would do such a thing. We believe that when a person dies, his spirit continues to exist independently of his body, and is free to make choices that will affect his eternal destination. We believe that the restored gospel of Jesus Christ is being taught to those spirits right now, as they await the resurrection in the spirit world. Every single solitary one of them will have the opportunity to hear, understand, and make an educated decision as to whether to accept or reject it. This will all take place before anyone stands before God to be judged. Ghandi and Mother Teresa stand every bit as great a chance to end up in the Celestial Kingdom as does any Mormon, and being a Mormon doesn't guarantee a person of anything.

As far as the "ghetto heaven," is concerned, I find it odd that anyone would refer to any part of Heaven as a ghetto. We believe that almost everyone who has ever lived will eventually go to Heaven to spend eternity there. It is also beyond my comprehension that someone who would tell me that I'm going to burn in Hell forever because I'm a Mormon, would describe as "egocentric" the belief that Heaven is big enough for us all. And assuming that Ghandi, for instance, did not end up in the Celestial Kingdom... I wonder if he'd rather be in the Mormon "ghetto heaven" or burn forever in the mainstream Christian lake of fire.

[Katzpur]

Did Brigham Young teach that there were men living on the moon?

In Joseph Smith’s and Brigham Young’s day, there was a newspaper article in which a famous astronomer had declared that there were men living on the moon. This hoax was actually very well-known at the time, and was believed by many. As a matter of fact, William Herschel, who discovered the planet Uranus, (and who died in 1822) once said, “Who can say that it is not extremely probably, nay beyond doubt, that there must be inhabitants on the moon of some kind or another?” At another time he said that he thought the existence of life on the moon was “an absolute certainty.” When asked whether or not he though it was true, Brigham Young responded, “I rather think it is.” Obviously he was wrong, but he wasn’t the only person at the time who believed it, and he clearly never implied that it was anything other than his own opinion. I guess that a noted scientist can get away with saying it’s an “absolute certainty” that there are men living on the moon, but an LDS man with no scientific background whatsoever who believes the same thing has got to be a nut job.

[jasper12]

Katzpur, it is interesting how you are actually posting half truths about the Latter Day Saint Church, why not post the correct information? Your spin is quite interesting, but it is a spin. I could play the game, but why bother. You know you are not posting things accurately, that should be shameful enough.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by jasper12

Katzpur, it is interesting how you are actually posting half truths about the Latter Day Saint Church, why not post the correct information? Your spin is quite interesting, but it is a spin. I could play the game, but why bother. You know you are not posting things accurately, that should be shameful enough.

Why don't you give me an example, Jasper? I have said nothing dishonest. I have told the whole truth. You say you could play the game but why bother? I say that if you accuse someone of something, you ought to be a big enough person to provide evidence to support your accusation.

[jasper12]

HEAVEN-The Mormon church teaches there are three levels of heaven (three "degrees of glory"):

• Telestial - where unbelievers go
• Terrestrial - for religious people who aren't Mormons and for Mormons who have not met the requirements of the
• Celestial - for Mormons who have kept ALL of the laws and ordinances of their church. What will the celestial heaven (kingdom) supposedly be like for a good Mormon? He will be a god, he will rule over a planet with his wives and spirit children.

So, only Mormons go to Celesital heaven. No unbelievers allowed. So, I guess Mother Theresa will be fine in the lower heaven, as she is not Mormon.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by jasper12

HEAVEN-The Mormon church teaches there are three levels of heaven (three "degrees of glory"):

• Telestial - where unbelievers go
• Terrestrial - for religious people who aren't Mormons and for Mormons who have not met the requirements of the
• Celestial - for Mormons who have kept ALL of the laws and ordinances of their church. What will the celestial heaven (kingdom) supposedly be like for a good Mormon? He will be a god, he will rule over a planet with his wives and spirit children.

So, only Mormons go to Celesital heaven. No unbelievers allowed. So, I guess Mother Theresa will be fine in the lower heaven, as she is not Mormon.

Okay, now post your source.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by jasper12

HEAVEN-The Mormon church teaches there are three levels of heaven (three "degrees of glory"):

• Telestial - where unbelievers go
• Terrestrial - for religious people who aren't Mormons and for Mormons who have not met the requirements of the
• Celestial - for Mormons who have kept ALL of the laws and ordinances of their church. What will the celestial heaven (kingdom) supposedly be like for a good Mormon? He will be a god, he will rule over a planet with his wives and spirit children.

So, only Mormons go to Celesital heaven. No unbelievers allowed. So, I guess Mother Theresa will be fine in the lower heaven, as she is not Mormon.

Okay, apparently you're not going to bother with providing a source, so I'll just have to go with what you've given me. You obviously did not get this from an LDS source, because as I said before, there will be no denominations in Heaven, and the denomination or religion a person affiliates with here on earth is not the sole determining factor. You also obviously either did not read, or simply disregarded the paragraph in my previous post in which I explained the reasoning behind this. I'll post it again for your benefit:

Unlike other Christians, we don't believe that when this mortal life ends, the chance to learn and grow and make choices ends. What kind of a God would send someone to Hell who never had the opportunity to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ during his or her lifetime? What about the little girl who grew up in 2nd century China, long before Christianity had spread to that part of the world? What kind of God would condemn that child (or even adult) to an eternity in some kind of a lake of fire for something over which he or she had no control? We certainly don't believe God would do such a thing. We believe that when a person dies, his spirit continues to exist independently of his body, and is free to make choices that will affect his eternal destination. We believe that the restored gospel of Jesus Christ is being taught to those spirits right now, as they await the resurrection in the spirit world. Every single solitary one of them will have the opportunity to hear, understand, and make an educated decision as to whether to accept or reject it. This will all take place before anyone stands before God to be judged. Ghandi and Mother Teresa stand every bit as great a chance to end up in the Celestial Kingdom as does any Mormon, and being a Mormon doesn't guarantee a person of anything.

I could post the entire 76th section of the Doctrine and Covenants which is the Church's official source for information on who will receive which degree of glory, but it's awfully long. Instead, I'll use exerpts both from it and from the Encyclopedia of Mormonism, which is not part of the LDS canon, but which is considered to explain our doctrine accurately.

You actually have a reasonably good grasp of this doctrine, but but you have definitely oversimplified it, and you seem not to realize that the issue is not going to be whether a person was a Mormon or not. Each and every person on this earth is a product of the environment in which he lives. If I'd been born into a Catholic family, I might very well be a Catholic today. If you'd been born into a Muslim family in the middle-east, there's a very good chance you'd be a devout Muslim now. God, our Father is Heaven, is going to give us every opportunity to really understand His Son's gospel, either here or in the Spirit World. It is virtually impossible for any human being to predict the choice another human being is going to make once this life is over and he is able to more clearly recognize the truth. Sincere seekers will find the truth. That is a biblical promise. Wherever that truth may be found, the pure in heart will recognize it. This is a beautiful doctrine. It shows how much our Father in Heaven loves each and every one of us. He is going to do everything in His power to get each and every one of us back to His presence -- everything, that is, except force.

You said:

Telestial - where unbelievers go.

That's true, but it's more involved than that. Not all unbelievers will go there. Those who will are the truly unrepentant wicked, who refused to accept Jesus Christ's offer of salvation. Had they they rejected Him in this life, they could have repented and accepted Him in the Spirit World. But they didn't do that either. They were not only wicked, but stubborn and unrepentant. These individuals will not rise in the First Resurrection, but in the Second, a thousand years later. Because they refused to accept Jesus Christ's sacrifice and His offer to pay the price for their sins, they will be made to spend the duration of the Millennium in the Spirit Prison/Hell, where they will ultimately repent of their sins and recognize the Savior they previously rejected. The Bible says that ultimately every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ. The people who end up in the Telestial Kingdom are those who stubbornly refused to do so when they still could have been the beneficiaries of His sacrifice. By the way, in describing this kingdom, the one you referred to as "the ghetto heaven," Joseph Smith said that in his vision of it, "its glory surpasses all understanding."

Next, you said

Terrestrial - for religious people who aren't Mormons and for Mormons who have not met the requirements of the [here it ends... I'm not sure what you meant to say].

I'm not quite sure how to interpret your words "religious people who aren't Mormons," since being a Mormon is pretty much going to be a non-issue at this point. Mormon doctrine teaches that those in the Terrestrial Kingdom were honorable people who had a testimony of Jesus Christ but who were more or less lukewarm with respect to obeying the principles of the gospel and receiving the ordinances of His gospel. They may have even rejected Christ during their lifetime but accepted Him during during their time in the Spirit World. They were simply less committed, and less faithful to Him than they should have been, considering all He did for them. They, like those who will attain the Celestial glory, will rise in the First Resurrection.

Finally, you said

Celestial - for Mormons who have kept all of the laws and ordinances of their church.

Again, it's not just for "Mormons." I can understand why you'd see it that way, but we don't. As I said before, the work that is going on in the Spirit World is going to enable millions of people to attain Celestial glory, regardless of what religion they belonged to here on earth. We don't think of the ordinances as being the ordinances of "the Mormon Church." We think of them as being the ordinances Jesus Christ himself instituted. Call them what you want, it really doesn't matter if they are His. As for what the Celestial Heaven will be like "for a good Mormon," you've missed the mark here a bit, too. Not everyone who attains the Celestial Kingdom will be exalted (i.e. be a god). There are three additional levels within the Celestial Kingdom, and only those in the highest of them will be given this privilege. As for "ruling over a planet with his wives and spirit children," well, let's just say that's not the way we Latter-day Saints would put it. You won't find a single LDS website on the internet or any LDS-authored book in any bookstore that would state it like you just have. If you would like to know what we really believe about eternal progression, check out my post #69 on page 7 of this thread.

So, only Mormons go to Celesital heaven. No unbelievers allowed. So, I guess Mother Theresa will be fine in the lower heaven, as she is not Mormon.

See, the bottom line is what's wrong. I'll tell you what... If I were to wake up the moment after I die to learn that Catholicism's where it's at and that God was going to give me another chance to convert, I'd get in line so fast it would make your head spin. To me, the truth is a lot more important than the name it goes by, and I'm certainly not so stubborn that I'd cut off my nose to spite my face! Are you?