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Well, I'm with you on that. I don't think there are many rational people in this day and age who would approve of marriage (polygamous or monogamous) that involves force, coersion or children.
At least two of Joseph Smiths wives were only 14 when he married them. Is 14 not a child to you?
You believe, as I do, that God knows each and every one of us. There are many who never had the opportunity to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ during their lifetimes. They may have lived at a time and place where Christianity did not yet exist. They may have lived where the only thing they ever heard about Christianity was lies. They may have lived where Christianity may have existed but they simply were not exposed to it. Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe these individuals deserve at least one chance, one fair shot to hear, really understand and accept the gospel. As you may have learned from other posts in this thread, we believe that the gospel continues to be taught today in the spirit world. Just as people grow in the capacity to understand and accept new concepts throughout their lifetimes, this same capacity exists after they die. Of course, people don't really change all that much. The person who was stubborn, rebellious, and hard-hearted during his lifetime is probably going to have those same qualities after he dies, making him as unlikely as he ever was to recognize the truth when he hears it. On the other hand, the sincere in heart may just deserve another chance. None of us can say why some people just don't seem to be able to accept what is so obvious to us. But God knows each heart. He wants to see as many of us return to Him as possible. I believe that just as He is willing to be patient with us as we learn to overcome our shortcomings and as we repent over and over again for making the same foolish mistakes, I believe that He is willing to give us more than one opportunity to come to have faith in His Son.
Katzpur,
You are aware that I admire Mormons in many respects, and moreso after your thread has shown things I was not fully aware of before - such as faithful tithing and caring financially for church members who suffer economic difficulties - which I suspect is a huge consolation in the times we are facing at present.
However, I get the feeling we are worshipping two different Gods. Your God, it appears, gives everybody multiple opportunities to be saved, so that almost all of Adam's family will eventually go to one of three heavens.
I believe that God is all powerful (omnipotent) and all-knowing (omniscient) and that he knows the heart of every single soul who is "hungering and thirsting after righteousness," and as our Lord and Saviour promises, "THEY SHALL BE FILLED (with the Holy Ghost.) I believe that this operation takes place in this lifetime.
Rom. ch 1 says: [18] For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
[19] Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
[20]U[18] For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
[19] Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
[20] For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
[21] Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
[22] Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
[23] And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
[24] Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
[25] Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
[21] Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
[22] Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
[23] And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
[24] Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
[25] Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
I believe it would be a tragedy if someone was "hungering and thirsting after righteousness," and his life would be cut short and he would have to look for an after-death opportunity to be saved. But I believe our God and His Son are able to place every honest soul in a time and circumstance (such as Cornelius and his Gentile friendsin 9th ch, of Acts.) I believe that our God makes sure that no one who really and truly wants to do right will pass out of this life in a lost condition.
2 Cor 6:2 says, "(For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)
I believe that the vast majority of Adam's family will be lost. Jesus said, "Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able (luke 13:24.) The Bible tells of angels who are held in "chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment" (2 Peter 2:4.) However, we are assured that there will be an "innumerable company of angels" in that new heavenly Jerusalem.
Last edited by Robert M Prince; 10-15-2010 at 04:20 PM..
Reason: typo & ommision
However, I get the feeling we are worshipping two different Gods. Your God, it appears, gives everybody multiple opportunities to be saved, so that almost all of Adam's family will eventually go to one of three heavens.
I believe that there is just one God and that both of us are worshipping Him. We just see Him differently. Possibly that is what you meant.
Quote:
I believe that God is all powerful (omnipotent) and all-knowing (omniscient) and that he knows the heart of every single soul who is "hungering and thirsting after righteousness," and as our Lord and Saviour promises, "THEY SHALL BE FILLED (with the Holy Ghost.) I believe that this operation takes place in this lifetime...
I believe it would be a tragedy if someone was "hungering and thirsting after righteousness," and his life would be cut short and he would have to look for an after-death opportunity to be saved. But I believe our God and His Son are able to place every honest soul in a time and circumstance (such as Cornelius and his Gentile friendsin 9th ch, of Acts.) I believe that our God makes sure that no one who really and truly wants to do right will pass out of this life in a lost condition.
I can't say I'm sure why God places people on earth when and where He does. I definitely don't believe it's a random thing, though. In other words, I believe God knows exactly what He is doing. Furthermore, I can't imagine God requiring someone to have to look for an after-death opportunity to be saved. If God could purposefully put someone on earth anywhere and at any time He chose, He could just as easily provide that person with the opportunity to accept His Son's gospel after death. I think, for example, of someone like Gandhi. I believe it is entirely possible that God put this righteous man in the place where he could do the most good. No, he wasn't a Christian, but he may not have been able to influence as many lives as he did as a Hindu had he lived his life as a Christian. No one understands all of God's reasons for doing things. My personal beliefs is that, having fulfilled his mission here on earth, Gandhi will be ready and willing to accept the gospel of Jesus Christ sometime between his death and his resurrection.
At least two of Joseph Smiths wives were only 14 when he married them. Is 14 not a child to you?
Of course 14 is a child to me. That's why I qualified my statement and said, "in this day and age." A hundred and seventy years ago, however, it was not at all uncommon for a girl to marry at the age of 14 or 15, and to marry someone much older than she. So, in Joseph Smith's day, the situation was really pretty different than it is today. Also, bear in mind that there were no laws against plural marriage in the U.S. at that time, so Joseph was definitely not doing anything illegal.
There is one other thing to consider. Although some of Joseph's plural marriages were undoubtedly consumated, it is almost certain that not all were. Before you roll your eyes and say, "Yeah, right," let me explain. To Mormons, marriage is an extremely important ordinance (i.e. sacrament). There are certain blessings that we believe will only be granted to husbands and wives together. Joseph did marry some of his wives to enable them to be eligible for these blessings. Consider the fact that during the sixteen or so years Joseph and his first wife, Emma, were married (from 1829 until his murder in 1843), they had nine biological children together. Obviously Joseph was capable of fathering children. Of the other women Joseph married, not a single solitary one had a child by him. A handful of children born to some of these women were alleged to be fathered by Joseph, however every DNA test run so far has proved that this was not the case. Brigham Young, on the other hand, who was a comtemporary of Joseph's, actually lived with many of his plural wives, unlike Joseph, who did not, and has an absolutely enormous posterity to show for it. It really is quite unlikely that Joseph Smith had relations with very many of these women. Otherwise, we'd see some evidence of that.
Katzpur,
You are aware that I admire Mormons in many respects, and moreso after your thread has shown things I was not fully aware of before - such as faithful tithing and caring financially for church members who suffer economic difficulties - which I suspect is a huge consolation in the times we are facing at present.
However, I get the feeling we are worshipping two different Gods. Your God, it appears, gives everybody multiple opportunities to be saved, so that almost all of Adam's family will eventually go to one of three heavens.
I believe that God is all powerful (omnipotent) and all-knowing (omniscient) and that he knows the heart of every single soul who is "hungering and thirsting after righteousness," and as our Lord and Saviour promises, "THEY SHALL BE FILLED (with the Holy Ghost.) I believe that this operation takes place in this lifetime.
Rom. ch 1 says: [18] For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
[19] Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
[20]U[18] For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
[19] Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
[20] For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
[21] Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
[22] Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
[23] And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
[24] Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
[25] Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
[21] Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
[22] Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
[23] And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
[24] Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
[25] Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
I believe it would be a tragedy if someone was "hungering and thirsting after righteousness," and his life would be cut short and he would have to look for an after-death opportunity to be saved. But I believe our God and His Son are able to place every honest soul in a time and circumstance (such as Cornelius and his Gentile friendsin 9th ch, of Acts.) I believe that our God makes sure that no one who really and truly wants to do right will pass out of this life in a lost condition.
2 Cor 6:2 says, "(For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)
I believe that the vast majority of Adam's family will be lost. Jesus said, "Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able (luke 13:24.) The Bible tells of angels who are held in "chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment" (2 Peter 2:4.) However, we are assured that there will be an "innumerable company of angels" in that new heavenly Jerusalem.
So, none of the people in North Korea are thirsting after righteousness, eh?
And, God is reconciling things in the HEAVENS and earth. What in the heavens needs reconciling?
The link below is a 90 minute sermon that I heard today. I apologize for the length but feel free to fast forward if you need to. Let me know if you can download it and it plays on Windows Media player. https://www.transferbigfiles.com/492...5JtMYOag%3d%3d
Best wishes always in the continued search for truth,
Bob
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Man, it is time to start relaxing! I just turned 62 and am going to be fully-retired 
in 11 more working days!
let me explain. To Mormons, marriage is an extremely important ordinance (i.e. sacrament). There are certain blessings that we believe will only be granted to husbands and wives together. Joseph did marry some of his wives to enable them to be eligible for these blessings. Consider the fact that during the sixteen or so years Joseph and his first wife, Emma, were married (from 1829 until his murder in 1843), they had nine biological children together. Obviously Joseph was capable of fathering children. Of the other women Joseph married, not a single solitary one had a child by him. A handful of children born to some of these women were alleged to be fathered by Joseph, however every DNA test run so far has proved that this was not the case. Brigham Young, on the other hand, who was a comtemporary of Joseph's, actually lived with many of his plural wives, unlike Joseph, who did not, and has an absolutely enormous posterity to show for it. It really is quite unlikely that Joseph Smith had relations with very many of these women. Otherwise, we'd see some evidence of that.