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Perhaps you are not wanting any feedback here, or you do, but only from Katzpur. But, I'll throw in my $0.02 anyway. My responses are in purple.
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Originally Posted by O-Ducky
Just a recap of what I've learned so far.
- Mormons don't believe everything their founding prophet said should be cannonized (considered the Word of God - specifically his teachings on how God... "began"?)
That is true.
- Mormons (or some Mormons) believe that God the Father had an actual beginning and in that beginning He was a man of flesh.
Slight correction here. Some Mormons do believe that God the Father was once a mortal man on a planet, then became a glorified God. They would not say he had a "beginning", because they believe he, like all of us, has always existed. They believe we were "intelligences" that were given spirit bodies, then mortal physical bodies, and shall received immortal bodies when we are resurrected.
- There was a time when black people were not allowed to be anything more than a church "member". The Mormon prophets obviously approved of this. This means there was once a time when God agreed with this, but then changed His mind (this seems like it really has political reasons, rather than holy heavenly reasons)
Personally, I as a no-longer Mormon completely agree with you. But, today's Mormons find different ways to deal with this. Some think God never approved of it, it was a man-made policy made by the prophets in charge, but they were not acting as prophets at the time, only as men. Others say, the policy was God's will at the time, and then the circumstances became right for God to implement the new policy. They would say there is a precedent for this, in the New Testament, Jesus first instructed his apostles that his gospel was not to go to the Gentiles, but then later he tells Peter through a vision that the gospel should then go to the Gentiles.
- Mormons believe all will eventually be saved. (similar to Universalists)
No. Mormons believe there are a few individuals who will be sent to Outer Darkness, but it is very hard to qualify for that. The vast majority of people who lived on the earth will inherit some degree of glory, however, not everyone gets to go to the highest heaven.
- Mormons believe it is God's will to purchase people's false god's (the Koran) for them so that they will be spiritually satisfied, after a natural disaster.
I know absolutely nothing about this. It must have happened after I left Mormonism if it happened at all.
And I'm not trying to bash or anything. These are true statements, right?
Of all your prophets Joseph Smith would be the one who's teachings would be considered the Word of God... right? He's the one who had the revelations and started the Mormon faith. It makes no sense, to not count anything he said as part of the Mormon cannon.
Since the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was founded in 1830, sixteen men have held the title of "Prophet, Seer and Revelator." We believe that Thomas S. Monson, the man who holds that title today has every single solitary bit of authority Joseph Smith did. Ranking one of them as being more or less reliable than another is, to us, the same thing as saying, "We should trust what Abraham said, but not Noah. Isaiah was a true prophet, Moses perhaps less so."
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Just a recap of what I've learned so far.
- Mormons don't believe everything their founding prophet said should be cannonized (considered the Word of God - specifically his teachings on how God... "began"?)
That is correct. Had Joseph Smith or any of the prophets who followed him felt that his teachings in this regard should be canonized, I can assure you that there are steps they would have taken to make it happen.
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- Mormons (or some Mormons) believe that God the Father had an actual beginning and in that beginning He was a man of flesh.
With respect to some Mormons, that is correct. With respect to other Mormons, it's simply something we don't know enough about to make a decision.
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- There was a time when black people were not allowed to be anything more than a church "member". The Mormon prophets obviously approved of this. This means there was once a time when God agreed with this, but then changed His mind (this seems like it really has political reasons, rather than holy heavenly reasons)
As I said, I don't believe God ever approved of it, but men don't always do as God wants them to do.
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- Mormons believe all will eventually be saved. (similar to Universalists)
I'd give that a qualified "yes," but it's not quite simple enough to be answered with a straight yes or no.
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- Mormons believe it is God's will to purchase people's false god's (the Koran) for them so that they will be spiritually satisfied, after a natural disaster.
This has nothing to do with Mormon doctrine. It was a policy decision. Having helped the people of Indonesia after the tsunami a few years back with all of their physical needs, we responded to a request for new Korans. We don't believe we have to see eye-to-eye with people in order to treat them with tolerance and kindness. We gave them what they said they needed most, and we didn't ask for any other church's blessing before doing so.
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And I'm not trying to bash or anything. These are true statements, right?
I've answered each of them to be best of my ability and as honestly as I know how. I think, however, that if you weren't "trying to bash or anything," you wouldn't have had to point that out.
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I would think the teachings from your founding prophet on how God the Father "began" would be a very important teaching to consider!!!
This reminds me very much of a statement Finn_Jarber made awhile back. He said, "It seems rather clear that the mormon church has stepped in to decide what is "doctrine" and what is not..." My response is today what it was then and what it will be if someone makes a similar statement next month, next year or ten years from now: Yes, obviously. The Mormon Church decides what is doctrine and what is not. Good grief, who should be deciding?
To conclude this post, I am going to post something which I would appreciate very much your reading and attempting to understand. If I have not explained the LDS Church's position on what is and what is not official Church doctrine, this should make it absolutely clear...
In a 2007 statement issued by the Church, the following guidelines were given as to what constitutes LDS doctrine:
Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. A single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, but is not meant to be officially binding for the whole Church. With divine inspiration, the First Presidency(the prophet and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the second-highest governing body of the Church) counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications. This doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith. Isolated statements are often taken out of context, leaving their original meaning distorted.
Some doctrines are more important than others and might be considered core doctrines. For example, the precise location of the Garden of Eden is far less important than doctrine about Jesus Christ and His atoning sacrifice. The mistake that public commentators often make is taking an obscure teaching that is peripheral to the Church’s purpose and placing it at the very center. This is especially common among reporters or researchers who rely on how other Christians interpret Latter-day Saint doctrine.
Yes, just yesterday I did, before I read this thread. But hey, that doesn't mean I'm throwing a stone at you. Now, I just believe that it's possible you would not be totally open about something so that I might be converted. I still have a great deal of respect for you.
I'm not trying to convert you, Ducky. I don't know what I might have said to make you think I was. I never, ever proselytize on this forum, and I don't believe you can find a single, solitary instance in which I have. On the other hand, in my experience, people love to take my statements out of context and try to imply that I'm not being honest. Since I consider honesty and integrity to be among the most valuable character traits a person can have, it makes me feel really bad to be accused of trying to dance around issues or avoid giving a clear response to a straightforward question.
Why do mormons believe JS to be a prophet from God?
I believe him to have been a prophet because so much of what he taught was taught anciently, and because the things he taught make sense to me. I can accept his teachings about the nature of God, the relationship of the Father to the Son and our relationship to them much easier than I could possibly accept the God that came to exist in 325 A.D., resulting from a council convened at the request of a pagan emperor. I can accept the idea that God has provided a means by which even those who did not know of Jesus Christ's gospel during their lifetimes can come to hear, understand and accept that gospel during the period of time between their deaths and their resurrections. I can accept the idea that God sees our earthly family relationships as important enough that He wants them to endure beyond the grave. I can accept the fact that God wouldn't just leave his children with a rule book after having been in constant contact with them for 4000 years.
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Also, if faith in Christ is the only thing necessary for salvation... then why is mormonism even considered?
Considered by whom? I think it at least should be considered by anyone who believes the following" (1) that Jesus Christ established His Church as a part of His ministry here on earth, (2) that after His death and the deaths of His apostles, men changed his teachings and lost the authority He'd given to His apostles, (3) that not only did Paul prophesy of an apostasy but of a restoration, and (4) that God, being the same yesterday, today and forever, would not simply stop talking to us in this day and age.
If that question is addressed to me, I am not a Mormon anymore, not for the past 5 and a half years. I was a Mormon until I was 30-years-old. The things in this thread would have never made me leave Mormonism. I knew all of it when I was still a believer; it is how I was raised.
I don't think that things in this thread would be what makes a person leave Mormonism either.
The same thing that Martin Luther used that convinced him and opened his eyes to the truth, is finally what will for those who believe in Mormonism.... which is only the Bible.
I don't think that things in this thread would be what makes a person leave Mormonism either.
The same thing that Martin Luther used that convinced him and opened his eyes to the truth, is finally what will for those who believe in Mormonism.... which is only the Bible.
If the principle of "progression" is eternally true, why is it that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not gods of their own worlds?
That's an odd question. I wonder why you think they're not. The Book of Mormon makes it quite clear that they are the God of our world and of our entire universe and the Bible clearly states that this was the case "in the beginning." Here's what the Book of Mormon has to say on the subject...
1 Nephi 13:41 And they must come according to the words which shall be established by the mouth of the Lamb; and the words of the Lamb shall be made known in the records of thy seed, as well as in the records of the twelve apostles of the Lamb; wherefore they both shall be established in one; for there is one God and one Shepherd over all the earth.
2 Nephi 31:21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end...
Mosiah 15:4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.
That's an odd question. I wonder why you think they're not. The Book of Mormon makes it quite clear that they are the God of our world and of our entire universe and the Bible clearly states that this was the case "in the beginning." Here's what the Book of Mormon has to say on the subject...
1 Nephi 13:41 And they must come according to the words which shall be established by the mouth of the Lamb; and the words of the Lamb shall be made known in the records of thy seed, as well as in the records of the twelve apostles of the Lamb; wherefore they both shall be established in one; for there is one God and one Shepherd over all the earth.
2 Nephi 31:21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end...
Mosiah 15:4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.
So you believe you can progress to the point where you get a planet of your own but Jesus and the Holy Spirit have to share a planet with God the Father?
So you believe you can progress to the point where you get a planet of your own but Jesus and the Holy Spirit have to share a planet with God the Father?
I don't believe Mormon doctrine has anything to say on that topic, but when I was a Mormon, my friends and I speculated (and I honestly can't remember if we got this from something an early Mormon leader might have said or if it was just us reasoning it out), but I believed that Jesus was eternally married and that one day he and his wife/wives would have their own world, have spirit children and send them to a planet to gain a physical body, the same as our Heavenly Father did with us. A few Mormons I knew speculated that our Heavenly Father was the Savior of the planet he was mortal on, just as Jesus was on ours. They cited John 5:19 for this, "Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise."
My friends and I speculated that the Holy Ghost would one day be born and get a physical body as well and a wife, so that he too could populate his own creations with his offspring. I must emphasize that none of that is Mormon doctrine.
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The Book of Mormon makes it quite clear that they are the God of our world and of our entire universe and the Bible clearly states that this was the case "in the beginning." Here's what the Book of Mormon has to say on the subject...