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Sounds like a trip down memory for you. Do you have reservations or need to justify your leaving? I mean, if you look at the volumes of Catholic rhetoric and laws for members, there is as much additional ideology and statements of belief as has the Mormon Church. In fact centuries more to be accurate. But we still get on with it. I also remind you that the original posting was not about doctrine but...
A.K.A - What is the problem with you Christians bashing Mormons." Which in my humble view is quite an important issue. I mean why have we got this particular sect of Christians getting involved and doing these things, when we are strictly told by Jesus to mind our own business and turn the other cheek. And are they infiltrating the Christian Church, disrupting congregations or standing outside waving abusive banners. To the contrary, they leave us alone.
A.K.A - Why are we as Christians, not dealing with our own house and allowing this to happen?
It's not about doctrine, it's about Christian attitudes and our failure to comply to the teachings of our faith.
NQ
I just believe it's best to speak truth and give light where darkness exist. I am only showing the basic teachings of the LDS church that every member must accept to enter the church. It's something that is taught them over and over and they are questioned on on a regular basis. It's important to know what they believe so you know they do not accept true Christian doctrine. It's not bashing. It's just stating the facts. I have not said anything a true Mormon would disagree with about them. I have explained their most basic and sincere held beliefs factually and from their own manuals they use everyday. This is what they live and govern themselves by. No bashing at all here.
I don't know what your faith teaches but mine teaches that the truth will "set you free".
It's all too easy to forget that these threads are for community debate. I understand your concern and it would be the same in both camps to warn members to avoid heresies and false doctrine, and to strictly adhere to ones own beliefs.
I'm just wondering whether Mormonism should not have its own thread. There are issues and opinions relating to them that only they could discuss properly. Theirs would be a level playing-field.
It's all too easy to forget that these threads are for community debate. I understand your concern and it would be the same in both camps to warn members to avoid heresies and false doctrine, and to strictly adhere to ones own beliefs.
I'm just wondering whether Mormonism should not have its own thread. There are issues and opinions relating to them that only they could discuss properly. Theirs would be a level playing-field.
Perhaps you need to go back to the original post in this thread and see what it is about. I only posted what I did here because it fit it's original purpose.
I notice in one of the eairly post in this thread the question was asked if Mormons believe they can become gods and have planets to populate. The original poster said it was not official Mormon doctrine. By the way that's used a lot to get around admitting what the church teaches.
Let me quote President Spencer W. Kimball [Mormon prophet in the mid 1970's] said in a general priesthood meeting in 1975:
“Brethren, 225,000 of you are here tonight. I suppose 225,000 of you may become gods. There seems to be plenty of space out there in the universe. And the Lord has proved that he knows how to do it. I think he could make, or probably have us help make, worlds for all of us, for every one of us 225,000.
“Just think of the possibilities, the potential. Every little boy that has just been born becomes an heir to this glorious, glorious program. When he is grown, he meets a lovely woman; they are married in the holy temple. They live all the commandments of the Lord. They keep themselves clean. And then they become sons of God, and they go forward with their great program—they go beyond the angels, beyond the angels and the gods that are waiting there. They go to their exaltation.” (In Conference Report, Oct. 1975, p. 120; or Ensign, Nov. 1975, p. 80 Official Mormon publication.
Here are some more quotes from "Official LDS church publications"
“God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret.... It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God, and to know... that he was once a man like us.... Here, then, is eternal life – to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves... the same as all Gods have done before you...”
- Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr., “King Follett Discourse,” Journal of Discourses, v. 6, pp. 3-4, also in Teachings of the Prophet of Joseph Smith, pp. 345-346.
“He is our Father – the Father of our Spirits, and was once a man in mortal flesh as we are, and is now an exalted being.”
- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 7, p. 333.
“The Lord created you and me for the purpose of becoming Gods like himself.”
- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 3, p. 93.
“... God... is a personal Being, a holy and exalted man...”
- Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 1966 ed., p. 250.
“Mormon prophets have continuously taught the sublime truth that God the Eternal Father was once a mortal man who passed through a school of earth life similar that through which we are now passing. He became God – an exalted being – through obedience to the same eternal Gosepl truths that we are given opportunity to obey.”
- Apostle Milton R. Hunter, The Gospel Through the Ages, p. 104
“God is an exalted man. Some people are troubled over the statements of the Prophet Joseph Smith... that our Father in heaven at one time passed through a life and death and is an exalted man...”
- Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, v. 1, p. 10
“There is a statement often repeated in the Church, and while it is not in one of the Standard Church Works, it is accepted as church doctrine, and this is: ‘As man is, God once was; as God is, man may become.”
- Apostle LeGrand Richards, letter to Morris L. Reynolds, July 14, 1966, cited by Tanner in Mormonism: Shadow or Reality, p. 164.
"We all know that like begets like and that for the offspring to grow to the stature of his parent is a process infinitely repeated in nature. We can therefore understand that for a son of God to grow to the likeness of his Father in heaven is in harmony with natural law. We see this law demonstrated every few years in our own experience. Sons born to mortal fathers grow up to be like their fathers in the flesh. This is the way it will be with spirit sons of God. They will grow up to be like their Father in heaven. Joseph taught this obvious truth. As a matter of fact, he taught that through this process God himself attained perfection. From President Snow's understanding of the teachings of the Prophet on this doctrinal point, he coined the familiar couplet: "As man is, God once was; as God is, man may become." This teaching is peculiar to the restored gospel of Jesus Christ."
- Apostle Marion G. Romney, General Conference, October 1964
"We often say, and you have heard the expression as it has already been referred to in this conference, that "as man now is, God once was, and as God now is, man may become." The only way man may become as God now is, is through fulfilling the laws of celestial marriage and the laws of the gospel, as I have just read to you the word of the Lord from the D&C. Can we afford to overlook such opportunities for exaltation? Temple marriage is not just another form of church wedding; it is a divine covenant with the Lord that if we are faithful to the end, we may become as God now is."
- Patriarch Eldred G. Smith, General Conference, October 1948
"Perhaps there is something else that we will learn as we perfect our bodies and our spirits in the times to come. You and I—what helpless creatures are we! Such limited power we have, and how little can we control the wind and the waves and the storms! We remember the numerous scriptures which, concentrated in a single line, were said by a former prophet, Lorenzo Snow: “As man is, God once was; and as God is, man may become.” This is a power available to us as we reach perfection and receive the experience and power to create, to organize, to control native elements. How limited we are now! We have no power to force the grass to grow, the plants to emerge, the seeds to develop."
- Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, "Our Great Potential," Ensign, May 1977, p. 49
"... the whole design of the gospel is to lead us onward and upward to greater achievement, even, eventually, to godhood. This great possibility was enunciated by the Prophet Joseph Smith in the King Follet sermon (see Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 342-62; and emphasized by President Lorenzo Snow. It is this grand and incomparable concept: As God now is, man may become! (See The Teachings of Lorenzo Snow, comp. Clyde J. Williams, Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1984, p. 1.)."
- Prophet Gordon B. Hinckley, "Don't Drop the Ball," Ensign, November 1994, p. 46
"After men have got their exaltations and their crowns---have become Gods, even the sons of God---are made Kings of kings and Lords of lords, they have the power then of propagating their species in spirit; and that is the first of their operations with regard to organizing a world. Power is then given to them to organize the elements, and then commence the organization of tabernacles."
- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 6, pp. 274-275
Seems to be a pretty talked about topic. I know it was all the time I was in the LDS church.
I'm just wondering whether Mormonism should not have its own thread. There are issues and opinions relating to them that only they could discuss properly. Theirs would be a level playing-field.
This thread was initially intended to educate people on what is actually LDS doctrine and what myths and extrapolations have been built up over the years around these doctrines. It has since kind of devolved into a thread where non-Mormons (1) claim to know more about Mormonism than Mormons and (2) accuse Mormons of being dishonest about their beliefs. I've always been willing to discuss my religion, but I'm just not particularly interested in being told that I'm either uninformed or lying, neither of which is an accurate statement.
With respect to the doctrine of Eternal Progression, our doctrines are found in our Standard Works. They clearly state that we believe we have been endowed with our Creator with a spark of divinity which, if nurtured, may ultimately lead to our becoming like Him. As to the specifics of what that entails, we can only speculate. Since God has not seen fit to reveal more to us at this time, I find such speculation to be a waste of time. I do know that Jesus Christ told His disciples to "be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." It was not a suggestion. It was a commandment. Our responsibility is to live the best lives we can, to trust in Jesus Christ, and to honor our Father in Heaven in all we say and do. It's up to Him to do with us as He chooses.
Here are some basic teachings all Mormons must accept.
God has a body.
We are spirit children of God and existed before coming to earth.
The Mormon Priesthood is required to preform ordnances
Ordances are required for salvation
Now pay close attention to the last 2. Now you see they believe you cannot have salvation without the Mormon church.
I'd say it is the same priesthood as existed in the original Church. I don't believe it was called "the Mormon priesthood" back then. Regardless of what it was or is called, it is the power given by God to men, authorizing them to act in His name. As far as ordinances being required for salvation, perhaps you should qualify that to say that some ordinances are required for the fullness of salvation. The way you put it, it really does make it sound like Mormons believe they're the only ones who will be going to Heaven. Mormonism teaches that pretty much everyone who has ever lived will receive a degree of salvation, and even that knowledge and choices gained after death will be considered. Sure, the Celestial Kingdom is said to have the glory of the sun, while the Terrestrial and Telestial have the glory, respectively, of the moon and stars. All I can say is that the Mormon view of Heaven beats the heck out of the view of Heaven espoused by traditional Christianity.
But you are, talking too and attempting to correct, the wrong person. My entrance on this thread was to combat so called Christians that feel they have a right to persecute Mormons. But obviously it has fallen on deaf ears.
I submit to your authority on this matter and bow out gracefully from this debate. I didn't participate to win, purely to impart some spiritual common sense onto my Christian community, not yours. Everyone is entitled to believe what they like and I like the diversity and colourfulness of that. Let the Mormon Church do what they want to do and the Christian Church to their destiny. Farewell my friend.
NQ
P.S. If your're into tensor calculus, time-space continuum and all things scientific, find me on the science thread. Beats the heck out of both the Christian and Mormon perspective of the Universe. The magic of God's Universe out-ways anything that you could imagine or even write about.
Psalm 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; And the firmament showeth his handiwork.
But you are, talking too and attempting to correct, the wrong person. My entrance on this thread was to combat so called Christians that feel they have a right to persecute Mormons. But obviously it has fallen on deaf ears.
I submit to your authority on this matter and bow out gracefully from this debate. I didn't participate to win, purely to impart some spiritual common sense onto my Christian community, not yours. Everyone is entitled to believe what they like and I like the diversity and colourfulness of that. Let the Mormon Church do what they want to do and the Christian Church to their destiny. Farewell my friend.
NQ
P.S. If your're into tensor calculus, time-space continuum and all things scientific, find me on the science thread. Beats the heck out of both the Christian and Mormon perspective of the Universe. The magic of God's Universe out-ways anything that you could imagine or even write about.
Psalm 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; And the firmament showeth his handiwork.
NickyQuen, I probably should have simply made that statement without quoting you. It wasn't my intention to "correct you" but simply to use your comments as a jumping off point in presenting my own thoughts.
With respect to tensor calculus, time-space continuum and virtually anything scientific, I'm afraid I would be unable to respond intelligently to anything you might say. Science was always my toughest subject in both high school and college, and would be at the bottom of the list of things I'm equipped to converse on.
That said, I do like Carl Sagan's comment that "in some respects, science has far surpassed religion in delivering awe. How is it that hardly any major religion has looked at science and concluded, 'This is better than we thought! The Universe is much bigger than our prophets said -- grander, more subtle, more elegant. God must be even greater than we dreamed'? Instead, they say, "no, no, no! My god is a little god, and I want to to stay that way.' A religion, old or new, that stressed the magnificence of the Universe as revealed by modern science might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the conventional faiths. Sooner or later, such a religion will emerge" (Pale Blue Dot: A Vision of the Human Future in Space [1194], 50).
I'm sure that there are many who would disagree with me, but I see Mormonism as that religion.
I notice in one of the eairly post in this thread the question was asked if Mormons believe they can become gods and have planets to populate. The original poster said it was not official Mormon doctrine. By the way that's used a lot to get around admitting what the church teaches.
Let me quote President Spencer W. Kimball [Mormon prophet in the mid 1970's] said in a general priesthood meeting in 1975:
“Brethren, 225,000 of you are here tonight. I suppose 225,000 of you may become gods. There seems to be plenty of space out there in the universe. And the Lord has proved that he knows how to do it. I think he could make, or probably have us help make, worlds for all of us, for every one of us 225,000.
“Just think of the possibilities, the potential. Every little boy that has just been born becomes an heir to this glorious, glorious program. When he is grown, he meets a lovely woman; they are married in the holy temple. They live all the commandments of the Lord. They keep themselves clean. And then they become sons of God, and they go forward with their great program—they go beyond the angels, beyond the angels and the gods that are waiting there. They go to their exaltation.” (In Conference Report, Oct. 1975, p. 120; or Ensign, Nov. 1975, p. 80 Official Mormon publication.
Here are some more quotes from "Official LDS church publications"
“God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret.... It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God, and to know... that he was once a man like us.... Here, then, is eternal life – to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves... the same as all Gods have done before you...”
- Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr., “King Follett Discourse,” Journal of Discourses, v. 6, pp. 3-4, also in Teachings of the Prophet of Joseph Smith, pp. 345-346.
“He is our Father – the Father of our Spirits, and was once a man in mortal flesh as we are, and is now an exalted being.”
- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 7, p. 333.
“The Lord created you and me for the purpose of becoming Gods like himself.”
- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 3, p. 93.
“... God... is a personal Being, a holy and exalted man...”
- Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 1966 ed., p. 250.
“Mormon prophets have continuously taught the sublime truth that God the Eternal Father was once a mortal man who passed through a school of earth life similar that through which we are now passing. He became God – an exalted being – through obedience to the same eternal Gosepl truths that we are given opportunity to obey.”
- Apostle Milton R. Hunter, The Gospel Through the Ages, p. 104
“God is an exalted man. Some people are troubled over the statements of the Prophet Joseph Smith... that our Father in heaven at one time passed through a life and death and is an exalted man...”
- Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, v. 1, p. 10
“There is a statement often repeated in the Church, and while it is not in one of the Standard Church Works, it is accepted as church doctrine, and this is: ‘As man is, God once was; as God is, man may become.”
- Apostle LeGrand Richards, letter to Morris L. Reynolds, July 14, 1966, cited by Tanner in Mormonism: Shadow or Reality, p. 164.
"We all know that like begets like and that for the offspring to grow to the stature of his parent is a process infinitely repeated in nature. We can therefore understand that for a son of God to grow to the likeness of his Father in heaven is in harmony with natural law. We see this law demonstrated every few years in our own experience. Sons born to mortal fathers grow up to be like their fathers in the flesh. This is the way it will be with spirit sons of God. They will grow up to be like their Father in heaven. Joseph taught this obvious truth. As a matter of fact, he taught that through this process God himself attained perfection. From President Snow's understanding of the teachings of the Prophet on this doctrinal point, he coined the familiar couplet: "As man is, God once was; as God is, man may become." This teaching is peculiar to the restored gospel of Jesus Christ."
- Apostle Marion G. Romney, General Conference, October 1964
"We often say, and you have heard the expression as it has already been referred to in this conference, that "as man now is, God once was, and as God now is, man may become." The only way man may become as God now is, is through fulfilling the laws of celestial marriage and the laws of the gospel, as I have just read to you the word of the Lord from the D&C. Can we afford to overlook such opportunities for exaltation? Temple marriage is not just another form of church wedding; it is a divine covenant with the Lord that if we are faithful to the end, we may become as God now is."
- Patriarch Eldred G. Smith, General Conference, October 1948
"Perhaps there is something else that we will learn as we perfect our bodies and our spirits in the times to come. You and I—what helpless creatures are we! Such limited power we have, and how little can we control the wind and the waves and the storms! We remember the numerous scriptures which, concentrated in a single line, were said by a former prophet, Lorenzo Snow: “As man is, God once was; and as God is, man may become.” This is a power available to us as we reach perfection and receive the experience and power to create, to organize, to control native elements. How limited we are now! We have no power to force the grass to grow, the plants to emerge, the seeds to develop."
- Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, "Our Great Potential," Ensign, May 1977, p. 49
"... the whole design of the gospel is to lead us onward and upward to greater achievement, even, eventually, to godhood. This great possibility was enunciated by the Prophet Joseph Smith in the King Follet sermon (see Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 342-62; and emphasized by President Lorenzo Snow. It is this grand and incomparable concept: As God now is, man may become! (See The Teachings of Lorenzo Snow, comp. Clyde J. Williams, Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1984, p. 1.)."
- Prophet Gordon B. Hinckley, "Don't Drop the Ball," Ensign, November 1994, p. 46
"After men have got their exaltations and their crowns---have become Gods, even the sons of God---are made Kings of kings and Lords of lords, they have the power then of propagating their species in spirit; and that is the first of their operations with regard to organizing a world. Power is then given to them to organize the elements, and then commence the organization of tabernacles."
- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 6, pp. 274-275
Seems to be a pretty talked about topic. I know it was all the time I was in the LDS church.
The quotes are straight from the horses mouth. A lot of people are talking about mormons now that there is a mormon running for president, so it was a good idea to bring back this thread. This idea that people can become gods is one of those mormon beliefs which separates mormons from Biblical teachings.
It seems so ridiculous to have to continue to post the same thing time after time after time. People, it seems, would prefer to cling to their old stereotypes instead of actually getting the facts straight. So that those who may be seeing this thread for the first time and don't want to have to plow through nearly 300 posts will be able to better understand the LDS belief on this subject, I will repeat my self yet again.
Mormons, apparently unlike traditional Christians actually do believe that with God, nothing is impossible. We believe in what we refer to as the doctrine of Eternal Progression, which is exactly what the name implies -- the belief that God has made it possible for His sons and daughters to continue to learn and progress quite literally forever.
Before even getting started, though, I think it vitally important that we clear up a couple of frequently misunderstood points:
(1) We do not believe that any of us will ever be equal to God, our Eternal Father in Heaven. He will always be our God and we will always worship Him. (2) Nothing we could possibly do on our own could exalt us to the level of deity. It is only through the will, grace and power of God that man is given this potential.
We believe, as people may or may not know, that ours is the re-established Church Jesus Christ established during His ministry here on earth. It would follow, then, that we believe we are teaching the same doctrines as were taught then and accepted by Jesus’ followers. Throughout the New Testament, there are indications that this doctrine (known as deification or exaltation) is not one the Latter-day Saints invented, but that the earliest Christians understood and believed it, as well.
Romans 8:16-17, 2 Peter 1:4, Revelation 2:26-27 and Revelation 3:21 are the four I like best. Through these verses, we learn that, as children of God, we may also be His heirs, joint-heirs with Christ, even glorified with Him. We might partake of the nature of divinity and be allowed to sit with our Savior on His throne, to rule over the nations.
Now, if these promises are true, what do they all boil down to? To the Latter-day Saints, they mean that we have the potential to someday, be “godlike.” One of our prophets explained that "we are gods in embryo." If our Father is divine and we are literally his "offspring", as the Bible teaches we are, is it really such a stretch of the imagination to believe that he has endowed each of us with a spark of divinity?
There is considerable evidence that the doctrine of deification was taught for quite some time after the Savior’s death, and accepted as orthodox. Some of the most well-known and respected of the early Christian Fathers made statements that were remarkably close to the statements LDS leaders have made. For example:
In the second century, Saint Irenaeus said, “If the Word became a man, it was so men may become gods.” He also posed this question: “Do we cast blame on Him (God) because we were not made gods from the beginning, but were at first created merely as men, and than later as Gods?”
At about the same period of time, Saint Clement made this statement: “The Word of God became a man so that you might learn from a man how to become a god.”
And Saint Justin Martyr agreed, saying that men are “deemed worthy of becoming gods and of having power to become sons of the highest.”
Some two centuries later, Athanasius explained that “the Word was made flesh in order that we might be enabled to be made gods. He became man that we might be made divine.”
And, finally, Augustine, said, “But He that justifies also deifies, for by justifying he makes sons of God. For he has given them power to become the sons of God. If then we have been made sons of God, we have also been made gods.”
Much more recently, the noted Christian theologian, C.S. Lewis, said much the same thing in his book "Mere Christianity." This particular quote is really worth paying attention to. It expresses the belief that mankind's potential is far greater than most of us realize and is almost to the letter how a Mormon would explain the doctrine:
“The command Be ye perfect is not idealistic gas. Nor is it a command to do the impossible. He is going to make us into creatures that can obey that command. He said (in the Bible) that we were “gods” and He is going to make good His words. If we let Him – for we can prevent Him, if we choose – He will make the feeblest and filthiest of us into a god or goddess, dazzling, radiant, immortal creature, pulsating all through with such energy and joy and wisdom and love as we cannot now imagine, a bright stainless mirror which reflects back to God perfectly (though, of course, on a smaller scale) His own boundless power and delight and goodness. The process will be long and in parts very painful; but that is what we are in for. Nothing less. He meant what He said."
Finally, according to The Westminster Dictionary of Christian Theology, “Deification (Greek theosis) is for Orthodoxy the goal of every Christian. Man, according to the Bible, is made in the image and likeness of God…. It is possible for man to become like God, to become deified, to become god by grace.”
The idea that God wouldn't want us to become as He is makes of Him a very petty God indeed. What kind of father would feel threatened or belittled by the success and achievements of his sons and daughters? If acknowledging that our Father in Heaven has given us such magnificent potential means that we are not Christians, then clearly Irenaeus, Clement, Justin Martyr, Athanasius, Augustine and C.S. Lewis weren't Christians either. That's not bad company to be in.
Last edited by Katzpur; 08-08-2012 at 06:23 PM..
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New Thread Maybe?
