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I have read a threads about mormonism on here that I thought were respectful and quite true even though they were written my believers who defer to the counsel of the HOLY BIBLE only and whose beliefs necessarily reject mormon philosophy. I live in a mormon community and I am very familiar with the principles of their beliefs. I agree with the OP u don't have to bash people because you disagree with their religion; nor, should people who are not mormons be labeled as "bashing religion" because they speak out against religious doctrines that do not conform to their practice of christianity.
There is no need to dance around it the HOLY BIBLE does not defer to the book of mormon and this is problematic for many christians... The Bible predates the book of mormon by a whole lot of years. Christianity existed a very long time before Smith ever got a revelation. It is reasonable for many people not to buy into to that revelation. It should not be a big deal if all other christians not of the mormon faith disagree with mormon doctrine. Do not the mormons disagree with other christians who are not mormons? There are valid reasons for sharp disagreements... My mormon friends whom I love do not have a problem disagreeing with my beliefs and I certainly do not have a problem telling them the truth as I see it based upon my read of the Holy Bible. They believe it is their duty to stand up for what they believe and I believe it is my duty to do the same. We are never going to agree, but we are neighbors and coexist nicely. At the end of the day if you are a believer and practice your faith in God- each person is accountable to God whom I suspect is neither mormon or christian. Now this is just my own perspective. I could be wrong, but I doubt it
At the end of the day if you are a believer and practice your faith in God- each person is accountable to God whom I suspect is neither mormon or christian. Now this is just my own perspective. I could be wrong, but I doubt it
I've got to agree with you, sun queen. Here's one of my favorite quotes: "Fundamental righteousness is based on adherence to what you know to be right." (I would add, though, "...unless your actions are harmful to someone else.") Thanks for your post.
Katzpur, I see your in SLC. I assume you have been through the temple. Not knowing your age I wondered which temple rituals were in effect when you went. Was if prior to the 1990 changes where they took out the blood oaths and where they show the Christian preacher as a hireling of satan. That was taken out in 1990 as well.
I understand that in 2005 they changed these "eternal ordnances" once again and now you don't have to get naked and put on the poncho and get washed. I understand they just do it symbolically now.
When I was a member it bothered me that they changed this "eternal ordanaces". What do you think?
At the time it bothered me that Joseph Smith had said:
"Now the purpose in Himself in the winding up scene of the last dispensation is that all things pertaining to that dispensation should be conducted precisely in accordance with the preceding dispensations.... He set the temple ordinances to be the same forever and ever and set Adam to watch over them, to reveal them from heaven to man, or to send angels to reveal them."
- The Prophet Joseph Smith, History of the Church, vol.4, p. 208
And here they were changing them. This was one of the issues I had with the church when I still believed Joseph had truly been called to "Restore" the church. (I now know the church of Jesus Christ never was lost just as Christ Himself declared"
Katzpur what do you think Brigham Young meant when he said this?
"Now hear it, O inhabitants of the earth, Jew and Gentile, Saint and sinner! When our father Adam came into the Garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is Michael, the Archangel, the ancient of days! about whom holy men have written and spoken--he is our Father and our God, and the only God with whom we have to do." - Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol.1, p.51.
Katzpur, I see your in SLC. I assume you have been through the temple. Not knowing your age I wondered which temple rituals were in effect when you went. Was if prior to the 1990 changes where they took out the blood oaths and where they show the Christian preacher as a hireling of satan. That was taken out in 1990 as well.
I understand that in 2005 they changed these "eternal ordnances" once again and now you don't have to get naked and put on the poncho and get washed. I understand they just do it symbolically now.
I received my endowment in 1970.
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When I was a member it bothered me that they changed this "eternal ordanaces". What do you think?
I don't think it really matters what I think, do you? I'd suggest you read this article. It does a better job of addressing this issue than I could even begin to.
Katzpur what do you think Brigham Young meant when he said this?
"Now hear it, O inhabitants of the earth, Jew and Gentile, Saint and sinner! When our father Adam came into the Garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is Michael, the Archangel, the ancient of days! about whom holy men have written and spoken--he is our Father and our God, and the only God with whom we have to do." - Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol.1, p.51.
It sounds to me as if he mistakenly thought that God = the Archangel, Michael = Adam. The Church's official position on Brigham Young's "Adam-God" theory is that it is not doctrinal. Therefore, I don't think much about it at all.
Actually, it was "right" for a time after Christ's death. But, as Paul predicted, a "falling away" (an "apostasia") took place in the years shortly following his (Paul's) death. If you believe the Church Christ established never ceased to exist, you would have to be either a Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox Christian (which I'm pretty sure you are not). I suspect you would agree that there was an apostasy somewhere along the way. You probably just think it happened a lot later than we Mormons do.
I know you don't. I do.
Why would Jesus Christ have bothered establishing His Church if He had intended to fulfill His plan independently of it?
So you believe that from a few years after Paul's death to 1830 God's Plan has been on hold waiting around for man to get it right?
What Bible are you reading? Oh that's right the Book of Mormon.
The Worldwide Church of God, the Sabbath Day Adventists, The Jehovah Witnesses, and the Mormon's have all one thing in common - they all believe that God's plan has been on hold until their revelation thousands of years later.
Jeremiah 32:17
Ah Lord God! behold, thou hast made the heaven and the earth by thy great power and stretched out arm, and there is nothing too hard for thee:
So you believe that from a few years after Paul's death to 1830 God's Plan has been on hold waiting around for man to get it right?
I wouldn't put it that way. God's Plan was working exactly as He anticipated it would. You see, without God's guidance, man would never have gotten it right.
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What Bible are you reading?
The King James Version.
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The Worldwide Church of God, the Sabbath Day Adventists, The Jehovah Witnesses, and the Mormon's have all one thing in common - they all believe that God's plan has been on hold until their revelation thousands of years later.
Except that, as I already pointed out, Mormons don't believe God's Plan has ever been on hold. But you are right; the one thing these denominations have in common is that they are all known as "Restorationists."
I don't think it really matters what I think, do you? I'd suggest you read this article. It does a better job of addressing this issue than I could even begin to.
So you did take the blood oaths then. By the way, you know Joseph Smith got those from the Masons. He had joined the Masons just before he got this "revelation" for the temple rituals. I can assure you, having been through both, that they are indeed 100% taken from the Masons rituals. Even the hand shakes and tokens. It's the Mason ritual with the addition of some religious stuff. I know that as surely as there is a God in heaven and his Son is Jesus Christ. And I state that fact to you in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen
It sounds to me as if he mistakenly thought that God = the Archangel, Michael = Adam. The Church's official position on Brigham Young's "Adam-God" theory is that it is not doctrinal. Therefore, I don't think much about it at all.
I know that is the current church stand on it but at one time it was accepted and taught by the church leaders. You are aware of that fact I assume.
Brigham said in 1861:
"Some years ago, I advanced a doctrine with regard to Adam being our father and God, that will be a curse to many of the Elders of Israel because of their folly. With regard to it they yet grovel in darkness and will. It is one of the most glorious revealments of the economy of heaven, yet the world hold derision. Had I revealed the doctrine of baptism from [sic.] the dead instead Joseph Smith there are men around me who would have ridiculed the idea until dooms day. But they are ignorant and stupid like the dumb ass."
Quoted from Manuscript Addresses of Brigham Young. Watt, G.D., transcriber, October 8, 1861
There are many references in the official church documents, Journal of Discourses where the teaching is further expounded upon. You really should look up where the church once stood on this issue and see who is not telling you the truth these day's.
Read this:
"How much unbelief exists in the minds of the Latter-day Saints in regard to one particular doctrine which is revealed to them, and which God revealed to me -- namely that Adam is our father and God...Our Father Adam is the man who stands at the gate and holds the keys of everlasting life and salvation to all his children who have or ever will come upon the earth" (Sermon delivered on June 8, 1873. Printed in the Deseret Weekly News, June 18, 1873.)
They even had songs about it:
We believe in our God the great Prince of His race,
The Archangel Michael, the Ancient of Days,
Our own Father Adam, earth's Lord, as is plain,
Who'll counsel and fight for his children again.
We believe in His Son, Jesus Christ..." (Sacred Hymns and Spiritual Songs for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints p. 375) (Liverpool, 1856).
You will also find the teaching still held by some of the Mormon groups that broke from the Utah church before the Utah church decided to change it's teaching on the matter.
Check the references I give and you will see I am telling you the truth here. These are things I discovered as God led me to the truth and out of the LDS church.
Last edited by K4DL; 08-15-2012 at 09:53 PM..
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Now this is just my own perspective. I could be wrong, but I doubt it
What did Brigham mean?
I'd suggest you read 
