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Very interesting thread, OP. I'm an Aussie so I have rarely, if ever, encountered Mormons (though some did visit me years ago and brought me a book of Mormon). I'm actually an atheist but I find religion very interesting and am not the sort of atheist who thinks it's right to judge others based on what they believe. Just because I don't believe there's a God doesn't make me right or anyone else wrong, and even though I doubt I'll ever change my views on the subject, I still think religion is an inherently good thing.
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Of course 14 is a child to me. That's why I qualified my statement and said, "in this day and age." A hundred and seventy years ago, however, it was not at all uncommon for a girl to marry at the age of 14 or 15, and to marry someone much older than she. So, in Joseph Smith's day, the situation was really pretty different than it is today. Also, bear in mind that there were no laws against plural marriage in the U.S. at that time, so Joseph was definitely not doing anything illegal.
I know the discussion has move on, but I wanted to say as someone who has studied the era very extensively, you're quite correct on this point. I've seen this criticism before, but it's just not useful to compare the two times. For a start, people live at least 30% longer. It was very common for poorer folks to live an average lifespan of around 35-40 at the time (which is still seen in some poorer nations now), and it was extremely uncommon to live past around 50-60. Wealthier folks tended to live longer, extending their average lifespan to about 50 on average. Again, living to 60 or above was uncommon and considered quite a blessing. Infant and child mortality was very high, too.
In poorer families, children didn't have the sort of childhood we do. Education was not universal and those who did have formal educations rarely continued beyond early what we consider the elementary years. Children in poorer families would be working basically full time by their early teens, either in farming, or placed in service, or in various trades depending on their background. No 14 year old was still considered a 'child'.
In wealthier families a 14 year old would be considered on the cusp of adulthood, and it wasn't unheard of to marry at 14-15. It was certainly most common to marry in the late teens, and girls who were unmarried after their mid-twenties were unlikely to marry at all. It's extremely important to remember the importance of marriage at the time. Well off women were dependant on marriage to survive well. If middle class or wealthy girls didn't marry, there were almost no socially acceptance jobs for them to take - it was also socially inappropriate for them to ever move out and make their own way (they would live with a relative or hired companion). Making a good match in marriage would provide for girls for life, giving them a home and income, so marriage was a pretty important subject and if a very good match came along a sensible parent would most certainly want to see their 14-15 year old child settled and provided for (especially if that family couldn't provide the girl with much hope of income, as the family would probably continue to support them until marriage, and for life if they never married).
One thing I'm keen to ask about is what's it like to grow up as a Mormon child? (Bit of a vague question!) What are some of the experiences a Mormon child would enjoy that other kids wouldn't?
So you believe you can progress to the point where you get a planet of your own but Jesus and the Holy Spirit have to share a planet with God the Father?
still waiting for an answer from the OP on this one.
So you believe you can progress to the point where you get a planet of your own but Jesus and the Holy Spirit have to share a planet with God the Father?
That's an inaccurate statement, but there is no point in my repeating myself yet again. I've already explained the doctrine of eternal progression in great depth, and I've already explained the LDS understanding of the nature of the Godhead.
I'm an Aussie so I have rarely, if ever, encountered Mormons (though some did visit me years ago and brought me a book of Mormon).
Just as a matter of general interest, as of 2010, there were 123,650 Latter-day Saints in Australia. That represents .58% of the country's population or 1 Mormon in every 172 people.
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Originally Posted by jcroc
One thing I'm keen to ask about is what's it like to grow up as a Mormon child? (Bit of a vague question!) What are some of the experiences a Mormon child would enjoy that other kids wouldn't?
I grew up Mormon, so I can probably give you a pretty good idea of what my experience was like. I won't attempt to compare and contrast it with what I can only assume it would have been like to grow up non-Mormon.
LDS children formally start their religious training at three years of age. There is a program for children ages 3 through 12 called "Primary." Primary is held for two hours each Sunday. Children learn from an early age that they have a Heavenly Father who loves them and that He has a son known to us as Jesus Christ. They are taught the basics of prayer from pretty much as early as they are able to communicate their gratitude and needs. They do not, however, learn memorized prayers, but learn instead to address God as "Our Heavenly Father" or "Our Father in Heaven," to thank Him for all He has given them (parents and family, comfortable home, food to eat, friends, health, etc.) and to ask him for continued blessings (faith, honesty, kindness, help with problems they are experiencing, protection of loved ones, etc.) and then to close their prayer "in the name of Jesus Christ."
In Primary, they learn basic gospel principles and hear stories from the Bible and the Book of Mormon. Of course, all lesson material is age appropriate, so a lesson on the Holy Ghost would be different for a four-year-old than for a ten-year-old. They also sing songs about Jesus Christ and His gospel. A couple of times a year, they typically perform a program for their parents where the things they've learned throughout the year are conveyed through word and song.
Older kids (ages 12-18) attend auxiliary programs called "Young Men" and "Young Women," where they continue to study the gospel. During this period of time, they also are involved in a number of service projects, both to benefit members of their own congregation and people in the community.
Mormons celebrate all of the major secular holidays of the countries in which they live, as well as Easter and Christmas. We do not celebrate the other holidays that are part of the Christian liturgical calendar. The church generally sponsors activities and parties throughout the year to celebrate holidays such as Halloween.
LDS children become accustomed to speaking and performing in front of groups of people from a very early age and are encouraged to develop and share their talents. (Just a guess, but this early exposure to being on stage may account for the disproportionate number of Mormons you see on American Idol, etc.) Even as teenagers, young women and men will frequently be asked to give a short "sermonette" in front of the entire congregation.
Many LDS teens participate in Seminary, which is religious education held on weekdays for the four years between 9th and 12th grades. They'll study the Bible, the Book of Mormon and LDS Church history.
Apart from what they actually learn in church, LDS kids are taught to take good care of their bodies, including abstaining from alcohol and tobacco. They are taught not to use the Lord's name in vain or to use crude or vulgar language. You'd almost never hear an LDS child say, "Jesus Christ!" as an epithet, for instance, as they use the Savior's name only in a respectful context. They are also taught to choose quality, moral entertainment; viewing pornography is strictly forbidden. LDS teens are encouraged not to date until they are sixteen years of age. Young girls are taught that it is entirely possible to dress fashionably without dressing immodestly. Boys and girls both are taught to respect their bodies and to wait until after marriage to have sexual relations.
Since Mormons believe in keeping the sabbath holy, children attend church with their families every Sunday. Some families are stricter than others, of course, and there are LDS families that require their children to stay at home after church and participate in activities with their own families that day instead of playing with friends. Mondays evenings, in particular, are set aside for family activities. This practice is known as "Family Home Evening."
During the summer months, most LDS teens attend a summer camp that lasts for a few days. In many areas (probably mostly in America), they have the opportunity to "go on trek," which is an experience lasting several days when they reenact the experience the Mormon pioneers had crossing 1300 miles of the U.S. Great Plains. This includes camping out, cooking over an open fire and walking a number of miles dressed in pioneer garb.
All of the things I've mentioned are cultural in nature. I think, though, that the thing I remember most about being an LDS child (although I may not have fully appreciated this at the time) was that I had a Heavenly Father who knew me by name, loved me, listened to me when I prayed and answered my prayers. LDS kids are taught that they are the sons and daughters of God and there is virtually no threat of hellfire in LDS theology. Mormon kids don't worry for a minute about burning in hell for eternity, nor are they taught that their non-Mormon friends will. Instead, the focus of their home and church experience is almost totally uplifting and encouraging.
I'm sure I've forgotten to mention a few things, but this is what comes to mind off the top of my head.
What don't you get.... Luther depended on other sources for the truth beyond the Bible. Once he realized that the Bible is the only source, then other things became clear that made him realized just how far off he was in the beliefs he held that only years before he was sure it must be the truth.
Mormons today have the same situation that Luther was experiencing. Mormonism have their version of
the pope,
the same mentality about "the church" being the only true one church
Exaltation is determined based on church membership and ordinances
purgatory
other writings that are the same plain or greater than the bible
edicts being considered God speaking
works righteousness
indulgences
forgiveness being conditional on the person seeking it
Remarkably, Mormons who leave Mormonism (and don't become agnostic) do so because as like Luther... when the Bible left on it's own, it is the single most written material that refutes much of they thought to be the truth that they previously held.
That's an inaccurate statement, but there is no point in my repeating myself yet again. I've already explained the doctrine of eternal progression in great depth, and I've already explained the LDS understanding of the nature of the Godhead.
I don't recall you explaining it. You said your church teaches that the Holy Spirit and Jesus are Gods of this earth...but you haven't explained how a good mormon hopes to have his own planet...but they are both over earth.
Could you point me to the post where you explained it?
I don't recall you explaining it. You said your church teaches that the Holy Spirit and Jesus are Gods of this earth...but you haven't explained how a good mormon hopes to have his own planet...but they are both over earth.
Could you point me to the post where you explained it?
Here are three of the posts in which I have explained the doctrine of Eternal Progression:
If you take the time to read them, you will probably notice that nowhere did I say that "a good mormon hopes to have his own planet." Furthermore, in the entire LDS canon, there is not one single solitary verse that anything about anybody having his own planet.
What don't you get.... Luther depended on other sources for the truth beyond the Bible. Once he realized that the Bible is the only source, then other things became clear that made him realized just how far off he was in the beliefs he held that only years before he was sure it must be the truth.
Mormons today have the same situation that Luther was experiencing.
I see no similarity at all. Luther "realized" something we don't believe to be true -- i.e. that the Bible is the sole source of truth. Since the Bible doesn't even make this claim, it's highly doubtful we'll ever come to "realize" what he did.
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Mormonism have their version of the pope,
No, we don't. Our Church is led by a prophet and twelve apostles, which is exactly the organizational structure Christ designated when he established His Church.
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the same mentality about "the church" being the only true one church
How many true churches do you believe there are, twin.spin? And why on earth would you choose to belong to a church if you didn't believe it was true? Yes, we may say that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is "the only true Church," but what we're really saying is that we believe it to be the re-establishment of the Church Jesus Christ founded, the Church Martin Luther correctly believed to have fallen into apostasy. You might find this quote interesting:
“I have sought nothing beyond reforming the Church in conformity with the Holy Scriptures. The spiritual powers have been… absolutely destroyed… I simply say that Christianity has ceased to exist among those who should have preserved it.” (Martin Luther, as quoted in Luther and His Times, page 509)
Other of the Reformers and notable Protestant theologians said much the same thing. Here are a couple more of their comments:
“It does not appear that these extraordinary gifts of the Holy Spirit were common in the Church for more than two or three centuries…. From this time… the extraordinary gifts of the Holy Ghost were no longer to be found in the Christian church… The Christians… only had a dead form [of Christianity] left.” (John Wesley, as quoted in John Wesley’s Works, volume 7)
“[There is] no regularly constituted church of Christ on earth, nor any person authorized to administer any church ordinance, nor can there be until new apostles are sent by the great head of the Church, for whose
coming I am seeking.” (Roger Williams, as quoted in Picturesque America, or the Land We Live In; edited by William Cullen Bryant; 1872)
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Exaltation is determined based on church membership and ordinances
That's a gross oversimplification of what we really believe. It sounds like you, too, need a refresher course. I'd suggest you read the three links I provided TheoGeek.
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purgatory
We believe in the Spirit World, comprised of Paradise, where Christ told the repentant thief who hung next to Him on the cross He'd see him that day, and Prison, where the wicked who had died without a knowledge of His gospel awaited their resurrection. All Christians know that these places (or states) existed at the time of Christ. We simply believe that they have not since ceased to exist. They have little in common, however, with Purgatory (which is one doctrine we believe evolved from what was taught and believed by the earliest Christians).
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other writings that are the same plain or greater than the bible
Yes, we believe that God's word is not contained within the pages of a single human-compiled book. We would not say, however, that some of what God has said is greater than something else He has said. That would be as silly as saying that Matthew trumps John or that Luke takes precedence over Mark.
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edicts being considered God speaking
That's right. We don't believe that God suddenly stopped communicating with mankind after having spoken to His people through prophets for 4000 years. Furthermore, I've never yet heard a good argument for why He would.
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works righteousness
Yes, we believe that faith without works is dead.
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indulgences
I don't have a clue what you could be thinking of here.
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forgiveness being conditional on the person seeking it
I think you're saying that a person must repent of his sins and ask God for forgiveness before forgiveness is granted. If I've understood you correctly, yes, that's what we believe.
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Remarkably, Mormons who leave Mormonism (and don't become agnostic) do so because as like Luther... when the Bible left on it's own, it is the single most written material that refutes much of they thought to be the truth that they previously held.
It kind of makes you wonder about the 290,000 non-LDS Christians who are converted to Mormonism each year. Apparently they came to realize that there was more knowledge awaiting them than could be found within just a single book.
I see no similarity at all. Luther "realized" something we don't believe to be true -- i.e. that the Bible is the sole source of truth. Since the Bible doesn't even make this claim, it's highly doubtful we'll ever come to "realize" what he did.
No, we don't. Our Church is led by a prophet and twelve apostles, which is exactly the organizational structure Christ designated when he established His Church.
How many true churches do you believe there are, twin.spin? And why on earth would you choose to belong to a church if you didn't believe it was true? Yes, we may say that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is "the only true Church," but what we're really saying is that we believe it to be the re-establishment of the Church Jesus Christ founded, the Church Martin Luther correctly believed to have fallen into apostasy. You might find this quote interesting:
“I have sought nothing beyond reforming the Church in conformity with the Holy Scriptures. The spiritual powers have been… absolutely destroyed… I simply say that Christianity has ceased to exist among those who should have preserved it.” (Martin Luther, as quoted in Luther and His Times, page 509)
Other of the Reformers and notable Protestant theologians said much the same thing. Here are a couple more of their comments:
“It does not appear that these extraordinary gifts of the Holy Spirit were common in the Church for more than two or three centuries…. From this time… the extraordinary gifts of the Holy Ghost were no longer to be found in the Christian church… The Christians… only had a dead form [of Christianity] left.” (John Wesley, as quoted in John Wesley’s Works, volume 7)
“[There is] no regularly constituted church of Christ on earth, nor any person authorized to administer any church ordinance, nor can there be until new apostles are sent by the great head of the Church, for whose
coming I am seeking.” (Roger Williams, as quoted in Picturesque America, or the Land We Live In; edited by William Cullen Bryant; 1872)
That's a gross oversimplification of what we really believe. It sounds like you, too, need a refresher course. I'd suggest you read the three links I provided TheoGeek.
We believe in the Spirit World, comprised of Paradise, where Christ told the repentant thief who hung next to Him on the cross He'd see him that day, and Prison, where the wicked who had died without a knowledge of His gospel awaited their resurrection. All Christians know that these places (or states) existed at the time of Christ. We simply believe that they have not since ceased to exist. They have little in common, however, with Purgatory (which is one doctrine we believe evolved from what was taught and believed by the earliest Christians).
Yes, we believe that God's word is not contained within the pages of a single human-compiled book. We would not say, however, that some of what God has said is greater than something else He has said. That would be as silly as saying that Matthew trumps John or that Luke takes precedence over Mark.
That's right. We don't believe that God suddenly stopped communicating with mankind after having spoken to His people through prophets for 4000 years. Furthermore, I've never yet heard a good argument for why He would.
Yes, we believe that faith without works is dead.
I don't have a clue what you could be thinking of here.
I think you're saying that a person must repent of his sins and ask God for forgiveness before forgiveness is granted. If I've understood you correctly, yes, that's what we believe.
It kind of makes you wonder about the 290,000 non-LDS Christians who are converted to Mormonism each year. Apparently they came to realize that there was more knowledge awaiting them than could be found within just a single book.
You can explain anything away if one chooses to. I could go into depth how what I said prior is so... but then you'd just brush it aside.
I'm sure you're aware of the group former Mormons from Bringham City, UT. They began as Mormons who set out to validate your claims... comparing the BoM to the Bible. They did so, so as to finaly put to rest critics.
And you know what, the more they seriously attempted to..... well you'll have to find out for yourself.
Last edited by twin.spin; 12-16-2011 at 08:33 PM..
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