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I've not attempted to "explain anything away." I'm just saying that your comment ("Exaltation is determined based on church membership and ordinances") is a superficial and misleading summary of LDS belief.
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I could go into depth how what I said prior is so... but then you'd just brush it aside.
I never brush legitimate comments aside. Once I've read what you have to say, I'll be happy to comment.
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I'm sure you're aware of the group former Mormons from Bringham City, UT. They began as Mormons who set out to validate your claims... comparing the BoM to the Bible. They did so, so as to finaly put to rest critics.
I saw that video years ago. It was a waste of my time the first time around, so there's no need for me to watch it again.
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And you know what, the more they seriously attempted to..... well you'll have to find out for yourself.
Twin.spin, do you honestly think any of this nonsense is new to me? There will always be Protestants that convert to Mormonism and Mormons who convert to Protestantism. It works both ways. The only real difference is that when Protestants convert to Mormonism they don't feel the need to bash their former religion. They simply embrace their new beliefs and move on.
If you have any specific issues you'd like me to address, please feel free to bring them up, but please don't expect me to critique an entire video.
I don't have a clue what you could be thinking of here..
Mormonism's version of indulgences that Luther faced is: tithing settlement meetings
As a former Mormon said once............
the Mormons require that members attending a meeting with the bishop at the end of the year to state, on the record, if they have paid a full tithe. If you have not, for any reason, you will be lectured on the need to repent and come back into compliance with the law of tithing.
It just reinforces the fact that you have to pay your way into the temple and into the “celestial kingdom”. My bishop once withheld my recommend because I was a month behind on paying my tithing. I was working in ward and stake callings, taking my kids to church every week by myself, doing my visiting teaching, etc., but he felt I wasn’t worthy to go to the temple, that I was “stealing from the lord.” I missed my cousin’s wedding because I didn’t have the recommend.
Last edited by twin.spin; 12-16-2011 at 11:09 PM..
Kayzpur,
Simple question. Since I have tattoos, does the Mormon religion say I will not go to Heaven?
I would appreicate your answer, since three men from the Mormon church sat in my living room inviting me to join their church, but said I would not be going to Heaven because of the tattoos.
Twin.spin, do you honestly think any of this nonsense is new to me? There will always be Protestants that convert to Mormonism and Mormons who convert to Protestantism. It works both ways. The only real difference is that when Protestants convert to Mormonism they don't feel the need to bash their former religion. They simply embrace their new beliefs and move on.
If you have any specific issues you'd like me to address, please feel free to bring them up, but please don't expect me to critique an entire video.
Katzpur ....
The real difference is that when people learn of the real truth of Mormonism that isn't in the mentioned in the ad campains, past the entry level imagery of the clean cut, happy family ...... these people who leave feel the need reach out with what their experiences taught them.
The other difference when a person leaves Protestants to Mormonism is that that person who converts to Mormonism forfeits their salvation per God's revelation:
Romans 3:20
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law;
Galatians 3:11
Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, “The righteous will live by faith.”
Hebrews 10:38
But my righteous one will live by faith. And if he shrinks back, I will not be pleased with him.”
Remember when God is not please is because "without faith it is impossible to please God"
There is no way of mis-interpeting those revelations; either one does what Luther did or do what you're doing,....... rejecting them.
James didn't teach salvation by works, for that would have been contrary to everything else revealed by God in the Bible.
Kayzpur,
Simple question. Since I have tattoos, does the Mormon religion say I will not go to Heaven?
I would appreicate your answer, since three men from the Mormon church sat in my living room inviting me to join their church, but said I would not be going to Heaven because of the tattoos.
Were they wrong?
Thank you.
The only reason one doesn't go to heaven is for unbelief in Christ as your subsitute for sin that is offered freely. One doesn't enter heaven by obeying the law.
Romans 3:20
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law;
Galatians 3:11
Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, “The righteous will live by faith.”
Hebrews 10:38
But my righteous one will live by faith. And if he shrinks back, I will not be pleased with him.”
Mormonism's version of indulgences that Luther faced is: tithing settlement meetings
You don't know much about indulgences, do you? I'll leave that to a Catholic to explain.
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the Mormons require that members attending a meeting with the bishop at the end of the year to state, on the record, if they have paid a full tithe. If you have not, for any reason, you will be lectured on the need to repent and come back into compliance with the law of tithing.
All members of the Church are encouraged to meet with their bishop once a year. This is generally about a ten-minute meeting in his office where he gives the member a computer printout of all of the donations he has made throughout the year (tithing, fast offering, humanitarian fund, missionary fund, etc.). The bishop then asks the person if the numbers on that printout match his own records. Once in a great while (this seldom happens, but there is always the potential for error) Mary Jones's tithing check might have been recorded as coming from Marty James. At tithing settlement, Marty's records show that she paid $200 more than the bishop's records show, while Mary's records show that she paid $200 less than the bishop's records show. This the the means by which any errors of that type are discovered and fixed. The member leaves the bishop's office with a church-approved record of his donations for the year, which is typically used as a reference a few months later when he is preparing his income tax return and wants to add a charitiable contribution. Members who are not paying tithing generally just don't set up an appointment for tithing settlement at all. There were several years when I did not pay tithing and simply chose not to attend tithing settlement. There was no lecture, no repremand, no nothing.
Kayzpur,
Simple question. Since I have tattoos, does the Mormon religion say I will not go to Heaven?
I would appreicate your answer, since three men from the Mormon church sat in my living room inviting me to join their church, but said I would not be going to Heaven because of the tattoos.
Were they wrong?
Thank you.
Your experience surprises me more than I can say. Since we believe in an almost universal salvation, people who have done a lot worst thing than get tatooed will be in heaven. I know Mormons who are extensively tatooed. Most of them got their tatoos prior to joining the Church, but I'm sure none of them is even the slightest bit concerned about not making it into Heaven. I've heard it said that Mormonism has the biggest Heaven and the littlest Hell of any Christian denomination around.
The real difference is that when people learn of the real truth of Mormonism that isn't in the mentioned in the ad campains, past the entry level imagery of the clean cut, happy family ...... these people who leave feel the need reach out with what their experiences taught them.
If I didn't know better, I'd think you were suggesting that I don't know "the real truth of Mormonism."
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The other difference when a person leaves Protestants to Mormonism is that that person who converts to Mormonism forfeits their salvation...
I believe that converts to Mormonism would see it differently, twin. I understand that you believe Mormons are condemned to an eternity in Hell. This is something you will never be able to convince me of.
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Remember when God is not please is because "without faith it is impossible to please God"
Great verse! That's one of my favorites.
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There is no way of mis-interpeting those revelations; either one does what Luther did or do what you're doing,....... rejecting them.
That's what I love about you, twin.spin. You're so open-minded, tolerant and respectful.
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James didn't teach salvation by works, for that would have been contrary to everything else revealed by God in the Bible.
You're right. He certainly didn't teach salvation by works. He taught that true faith, living faith as opposed to dead faith, is always accompanied by works of righteousness.
By the way, twin.spin, it's really nice of you to bring all of these subjects up. A lot of people are afraid of even getting into a discussion on Mormonism. I can always count on you to provide plenty of material for me to educate people on.
If I didn't know better, I'd think you were suggesting that I don't know "the real truth of Mormonism."
Never said that you didn't... just that simply because one leaves Mormonism doesn't automatically makes them unqualified nor one doesn't lose the reading comprehension.
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Originally Posted by Katzpur
I believe that converts to Mormonism would see it differently, twin. I understand that you believe Mormons are condemned to an eternity in Hell. This is something you will never be able to convince me of.
Of course they would see it differently... otherwise why convert at all.
My understanding as to why Mormons are not is well documented from other sources. The Bible alone is probably the best source
I figured out long ago that nothing will convince you, and that's unfortunate.
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Originally Posted by Katzpur
That's what I love about you, twin.spin. You're so open-minded, tolerant and respectful.
Am glad to know that, and I can honestly say I have the same love about you.
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Originally Posted by Katzpur
You're right. He certainly didn't teach salvation by works. He taught that true faith, living faith as opposed to dead faith, is always accompanied by works of righteousness.
James didn't reveal in the context Mormonism applies it to "faith, is always accompanied by works of righteousness.."
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Originally Posted by Katzpur
By the way, twin.spin, it's really nice of you to bring all of these subjects up. A lot of people are afraid of even getting into a discussion on Mormonism. I can always count on you to provide plenty of material for me to educate people on.
Actually you provide the material for me ..... for if there wasn't people like myself and others who leave Mormonism that can witness to the Jesus of the Bible isn't at all what the LDS church teaches... then all I have done is what is expected of me.... witness to the truth.
Never said that you didn't... just that simply because one leaves Mormonism doesn't automatically makes them unqualified nor one doesn't lose the reading comprehension.
I'm sure Judas Iscariot was qualified to explain the gospel of Jesus Christ to people. I would just suspect his perspective on it might be different from that of the Apostles who remained faithful to Jesus Christ.
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James didn't reveal in the context Mormonism applies it to "faith, is always accompanied by works of righteousness.."
I believe he did, but we might as well just agree to disagree on this point.
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Actually you provide the material for me ..... for if there wasn't people like myself and others who leave Mormonism that can witness to the Jesus of the Bible isn't at all what the LDS church teaches... then all I have done is what is expected of me.... witness to the truth.
We're both doing what we believe is expected of us, twin.spin. I guess that's the best either of us can do, wouldn't you agree?
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