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Sorry, but Jesus is quoted in Matthew 10:37-39 as saying
37"Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.
********************
God is Sovereign and somtimes it is hard for us to understand. But we are to put God first
Those scripture verses came to mind when I read the OP.
The soul is immortal. It does not die (Matthew 10:28). When the unbeliever's soul rejoins his body when it is resurrected at the end of the Millennium, he is sent into the lake of fire where he will reside forever (Revelation 20:11-15).
Man owes God perfect righteousness. Man cannot meet that requirement. Therefore, the Second Person of the trinity became a perfect man who could meet that requirement qualifying Him to pay the penalty for man's sins. Anyone who rejects Christ as Savior must stand on his own relative righteousness which God must reject. Since the unbeliever will continue to exist forever, his suffering and torment which will be the natural consequences of eternal existence separated from God, in addition to being in the presence of the countless other people who have rejected Christ, all of whom will be suffering, and the fire, and the hopelessness of his situation, will result in eternal torment. He will have brought it all upon himself.
In Matthew 10:28, the word translated as 'destroy' is the Greek word Apollumi, and does not mean cessation of existence. It does not mean the loss of being. It means the loss of 'well-being'. It means to be brought to a state of utter ruin and eternal uselessness in the place of everlasting torment where there will be 'weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 13:42,50).
You can yell and type colorful posts all you want, like you did in post #44, but your cut and paste comments help no one.
I'll give a very common example of people's experiences with religion around the world, and I'll make it a nice one and leave out any offensive details, which the Church really just can't handle.
Child is abused sexually and/or physically. Child is told that Jesus loves them and so they sing their broken heart out every Sunday. Child turns into confused and beaten down teen who is then told that God is sovereign, which teen mulls over in head. Teen is told that they are pretty much worthless and any good they do is as much worth as a woman's monthly bloody rags. Teen/adult is then told that unless they worship God and understand men's doctrines, they will be set on fire for eternity or abandoned by love for eternity.
Something is wrong..........
Fruits of the Spirit, Mike.
God is love, Mike.
Something is wrong.
You know what I think? I think the Catholic church did a terrible thing and the Protestant church picked it up. All you are carrying around in your copy and pastes are Zoroastrianism and Greek mythology. That's it.
The weeping and gnashing? That's for the religious leaders and those who think they understand who God is and keep others from ever understanding.
Last edited by herefornow; 10-14-2010 at 01:02 AM..
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I suppose the question has more to do with the limits of selflessness rather than the rightness or wrongness of exchanging your salvation like a birthright. The willingness of someone to exchange infinite visceral pain for the sake of sacrificial love.
The soul is immortal. It does not die (Matthew 10:28). When the unbeliever's soul rejoins his body when it is resurrected at the end of the Millennium, he is sent into the lake of fire where he will reside forever (Revelation 20:11-15).
Man owes God perfect righteousness. Man cannot meet that requirement. Therefore, the Second Person of the trinity became a perfect man who could meet that requirement qualifying Him to pay the penalty for man's sins. Anyone who rejects Christ as Savior must stand on his own relative righteousness which God must reject. Since the unbeliever will continue to exist forever, his suffering and torment which will be the natural consequences of eternal existence separated from God, in addition to being in the presence of the countless other people who have rejected Christ, all of whom will be suffering, and the fire, and the hopelessness of his situation, will result in eternal torment. He will have brought it all upon himself.
In Matthew 10:28, the word translated as 'destroy' is the Greek word Apollumi, and does not mean cessation of existence. It does not mean the loss of being. It means the loss of 'well-being'. It means to be brought to a state of utter ruin and eternal uselessness in the place of everlasting torment where there will be 'weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 13:42,50).
Oh Mike, the immortality of the soul is the oldest of all lies thrust upon humanity for the last 6000 years. Matthew 10:28 does say that the soul is immortal. That text is basically saying, "you may be able to kill me, but you can never kill my belief in Christ" (or whatever it is a person believes in). Mike, can you please give me a single text that uses the phrase "immortal soul"? Save your time no such text exists. There is no truth in the lie of eternal torment, there is only the gross distortion of God's character.
And another text that states everlasting destruction.
2 Thessalonians 1:5-10 (New International Version)
5All this is evidence that God's judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. 6God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power 10on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.
I grew up on the whole Bible not just the New Testament, and the whole notion of eternal torment simply destroys god's image in so many ways, as does the notion of Universal Reconciliation. One portrays God as unmerciful and the other portrays God as one who could care less about your free will. Eternal destruction shows mercy in allowing eternal rest, while also respecting a person's freedom to reject God.
Yhat would be all well and good if we had free will...
I agree with you there, Mike, but also remember what might seem easy for a firm believer might not be as easy for someone naturally inclined to be skeptical, for instance.
Also I don't see why the punishment has to be infinitely bad. You have to agree on some level being born kind of sucks, doesn't it. Especially as the road to life is so narrow. Jesus even agrees when he says if you cause others to sin it would be better if you had never been born.
The soul is immortal. It does not die (Matthew 10:28). When the unbeliever's soul rejoins his body when it is resurrected at the end of the Millennium, he is sent into the lake of fire where he will reside forever (Revelation 20:11-15).
Man owes God perfect righteousness. Man cannot meet that requirement. Therefore, the Second Person of the trinity became a perfect man who could meet that requirement qualifying Him to pay the penalty for man's sins. Anyone who rejects Christ as Savior must stand on his own relative righteousness which God must reject. Since the unbeliever will continue to exist forever, his suffering and torment which will be the natural consequences of eternal existence separated from God, in addition to being in the presence of the countless other people who have rejected Christ, all of whom will be suffering, and the fire, and the hopelessness of his situation, will result in eternal torment. He will have brought it all upon himself.
In Matthew 10:28, the word translated as 'destroy' is the Greek word Apollumi, and does not mean cessation of existence. It does not mean the loss of being. It means the loss of 'well-being'. It means to be brought to a state of utter ruin and eternal uselessness in the place of everlasting torment where there will be 'weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 13:42,50).
Still waiting for an answer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
their suffering will also continue forever.
Quote:
Originally Posted by firstborn888
For what purpose?
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