The idea of 'justice' according to some Christians... (Revelation, believe, Jesus)
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Hebrews 9:22: Without shedding of blood there is no remission.
1 John 1:7: The blood of his son cleanses us from all sin.
Throughout history, physical death has been the sacrifice for sin. Life and death are directly linked with sin. The type of eternal life believers have is an extension of this earthly 'zoe' life principle. It was the Roman Catholic belief that Christ suffered 'spiritual' death which led to the interpretation of 1 Peter 3:19 as teaching post-mortem salvation and as a result limbo etc. That's the problem with using human philosophy to interpret the Bible.
Adam and Eve had no notion of 'spiritual death.' Indeed, even sheol is not mentioned in the Creation story. Why did God not even mention that Adam and Eve would go to Sheol because they sinned?
Romans 5:12 refers to the Fall, but after Adam's sin death in general - physical death - entered the world. If not for the fall there'd be no death in nature, because God's original creation was perfect and death was imperfect.
If you believe ET is somehow inspired, you have to believe God used pagans to introduce it to the Jews. Why would God reveal eternal torment to pagans while keeping them in the dark about every other aspect of his nature? Why does alot of Jewish apolyptic literature around the time of Christ, and early Greek literature confuse the Greek and the Hebrew underworld, even using the Greek terms 'Tartarus' and the Greek motifs such as the 'River of Fire?'
You believe yours is the true and original interpretation of the Bible because centuries of theologians, scholars - i.e. 'experts' - have drummed it into your heard that they are divinely ordained to proclaim what is the truth and what is not. You're so afraid of 'heresy' you won't even let go of one of your preconceptions.
Great post, trimac! As in Adam all died (that's everybody) so in Christ shall all (that's everybody) be made alive!
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Also, answer me this, which makes more sense:
Christ physically dies then goes to the 'Paradise' side of Hades -> sacrifice for us burning eternally in Gehenna
How is going to Paradise a sacrifice for sins? Logically, it would mean that if we die in our sins we die and then go to Paradise! (after all that was the penalty Christ suffered for us).That's how it would work if Christ's sacrifice was a 'spiritual death.'
Christ physically dies and rises again -> sacrifice for us physically dying. In Christ we physically rise again in glorified bodies.
The sacrifice was the physical death on the cross. Not what happened to him during the Passion or afterwards. Or else Christ would have had to have gone to Gehenna/the Lake of Fire.
Hebrews 9:22: Without shedding of blood there is no remission.
1 John 1:7: The blood of his son cleanses us from all sin.
Throughout history, physical death has been the sacrifice for sin. Life and death are directly linked with sin. The type of eternal life believers have is an extension of this earthly 'zoe' life principle. It was the Roman Catholic belief that Christ suffered 'spiritual' death which led to the interpretation of 1 Peter 3:19 as teaching post-mortem salvation and as a result limbo etc. That's the problem with using human philosophy to interpret the Bible.
When the Bible mentions the phrase 'the blood of Christ', it is not talking about his literal physical blood. 'The blood of Christ' is a synonyn for His spiritual death on the cross. The animal sacrifices in which the physical blood of animals was bled out on an alter was only a representative analogy of the work of Christ on the cross. The phrase 'the blood of Christ' is intended to relate the animal sacrifices with the cross.
As I already stated, Jesus Christ was still very much alive when He had completed His work on the cross of bearing our sins. Jesus' spiritual death consisted of His relationship with God the Father being broken during the time period (3 hours from noon to 3 P.M.) during which He was being judged for our sins.
1 Peter 3:19 has nothing to do with post mortem salvation. There is no such thing. After His work on the cross was done, Jesus made a trip to Tartarus(2 Peter 2:4) where He made a proclamation to the fallen angels who had been involved with the Genesis 6 incident, that as a result of having successfully gone to the cross, Satan had been strategically defeated. The particular group of fallen angels which were confined in Tartarus were out of the loop. They had no idea of what was going on with regard to the angelic conflict - the spiritual warfare going on in the world. And so Jesus told them that Satan had lost and that their fate was sealed. They will in a future time be cast into the lake of fire along with Satan. Satan is still operational on the earth today, but he cannot escape his fate.
Quote:
Adam and Eve had no notion of 'spiritual death.' Indeed, even sheol is not mentioned in the Creation story. Why did God not even mention that Adam and Eve would go to Sheol because they sinned?
Again, God has warned Adam that he would die the very day he disobeyed God. Genesis 2:17 in the Hebrew says ' ...for in the day that you eat from it, dying you will die.' And the very moment he ate the fruit, he lost his relationship with God. That is spiritual death. His physical death did not occur until more than 900 years later. Adam was very much aware of the fact that his relationship with God had been broken. He and the woman, not yet named Eve, attempted to hide from God. The Scriptures don't record everything that God said to Adam after the fall. They do record that God promised that a Savior would come into the world. Genesis 2:15 records God's statement to Satan concerning the future Messiah. Adam and Eve had been given the Gospel by God Himself, and they believed and were saved.
Quote:
Romans 5:12 refers to the Fall, but after Adam's sin death in general - physical death - entered the world. If not for the fall there'd be no death in nature, because God's original creation was perfect and death was imperfect.
When Adam sinned, nature was cursed. And physical death did indeed come into the world. But for man, spiritual death was also involved. Adam had been created a trichotomous being - body, soul, and human spirit. When he sinned, he lost his human spirit and therefore his ability to have a relationship with God. He died spiritually. When he believed what God had told him concerning the gospel, he believed and was regenerated. The Holy Spirit restored Adams human spirit. Thereafter, everyone is born into the world as a dichotomous being, having only body and soul. Therefore everyone is born already spiritually dead. This is why they must be born again through faith in Christ. At the point of faith in Christ, a person is regenerated as per Titus 3:5.
Quote:
If you believe ET is somehow inspired, you have to believe God used pagans to introduce it to the Jews. Why would God reveal eternal torment to pagans while keeping them in the dark about every other aspect of his nature? Why does alot of Jewish apolyptic literature around the time of Christ, and early Greek literature confuse the Greek and the Hebrew underworld, even using the Greek terms 'Tartarus' and the Greek motifs such as the 'River of Fire?'
The Jews were well aware that the souls of the dead went to Sheol. And that was revealed to them by God. Some details can be read in this thread I did some time ago:
The Old Testament is concerned with recording God's dealings with the Jewish race. It does not go into any details about whatever revelations He made to the Gentiles after He brought the Jewish race into being. God had intended that the Jews evangelize the Gentiles, but they failed to to so. Before the Jewish Dispensation, there was the age of the Gentiles and the first several chapters of Genesis deals with that. But again, the Bible does not record all of God's dealings with the people of that time. The Bible records only what God saw fit to have recorded.
Why would you think that there wouldn't be a lot of literature around at that time which conflicted with other literature. During the intertestamental period there were all sorts of apocryphal stories being written. And Satan has always tried to discredit the Scriptures. One way to do that is to inspire a lot of writings which serve to confuse the issue as presented in the Scriptures.
Quote:
You believe yours is the true and original interpretation of the Bible because centuries of theologians, scholars - i.e. 'experts' - have drummed it into your heard that they are divinely ordained to proclaim what is the truth and what is not. You're so afraid of 'heresy' you won't even let go of one of your preconceptions.
God does in fact give certain men the spiritual gift of pastor/teacher as revealed in Ephesians 4:11-16. And the Bible is quite clear that those who die without Christ will spend eternity in the lake of fire. Theres nothing to misinterpret concerning that.
Christ physically dies then goes to the 'Paradise' side of Hades -> sacrifice for us burning eternally in Gehenna
How is going to Paradise a sacrifice for sins? Logically, it would mean that if we die in our sins we die and then go to Paradise! (after all that was the penalty Christ suffered for us).That's how it would work if Christ's sacrifice was a 'spiritual death.'
Christ physically dies and rises again -> sacrifice for us physically dying. In Christ we physically rise again in glorified bodies.
The sacrifice was the physical death on the cross. Not what happened to him during the Passion or afterwards. Or else Christ would have had to have gone to Gehenna/the Lake of Fire.
The sacrifice was His spiritual death on the Cross in which He paid the penalty for our sins. He died physically afterwards because His work on the cross with regard to sin was completed. And He had to die physically in order to be resurrected. He had to be resurrected so that we could be resurrected. His spiritual death on the cross was in being separated from God the Father during the 3 hours in which He was being judged for our sins.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
When the Bible mentions the phrase 'the blood of Christ', it is not talking about his literal physical blood. 'The blood of Christ' is a synonyn for His spiritual death on the cross. The animal sacrifices in which the physical blood of animals was bled out on an alter was only a representative analogy of the work of Christ on the cross. The phrase 'the blood of Christ' is intended to relate the animal sacrifices with the cross.
As I already stated, Jesus Christ was still very much alive when He had completed His work on the cross of bearing our sins. Jesus' spiritual death consisted of His relationship with God the Father being broken during the time period (3 hours from noon to 3 P.M.) during which He was being judged for our sins.
1 Peter 3:19 has nothing to do with post mortem salvation. There is no such thing. After His work on the cross was done, Jesus made a trip to Tartarus(2 Peter 2:4) where He made a proclamation to the fallen angels who had been involved with the Genesis 6 incident, that as a result of having successfully gone to the cross, Satan had been strategically defeated. The particular group of fallen angels which were confined in Tartarus were out of the loop. They had no idea of what was going on with regard to the angelic conflict - the spiritual warfare going on in the world. And so Jesus told them that Satan had lost and that their fate was sealed. They will in a future time be cast into the lake of fire along with Satan. Satan is still operational on the earth today, but he cannot escape his fate.
Again, God has warned Adam that he would die the very day he disobeyed God. Genesis 2:17 in the Hebrew says ' ...for in the day that you eat from it, dying you will die.' And the very moment he ate the fruit, he lost his relationship with God. That is spiritual death. His physical death did not occur until more than 900 years later. Adam was very much aware of the fact that his relationship with God had been broken. He and the woman, not yet named Eve, attempted to hide from God. The Scriptures don't record everything that God said to Adam after the fall. They do record that God promised that a Savior would come into the world. Genesis 2:15 records God's statement to Satan concerning the future Messiah. Adam and Eve had been given the Gospel by God Himself, and they believed and were saved.
When Adam sinned, nature was cursed. And physical death did indeed come into the world. But for man, spiritual death was also involved. Adam had been created a trichotomous being - body, soul, and human spirit. When he sinned, he lost his human spirit and therefore his ability to have a relationship with God. He died spiritually. When he believed what God had told him concerning the gospel, he believed and was regenerated. The Holy Spirit restored Adams human spirit. Thereafter, everyone is born into the world as a dichotomous being, having only body and soul. Therefore everyone is born already spiritually dead. This is why they must be born again through faith in Christ. At the point of faith in Christ, a person is regenerated as per Titus 3:5.
The Jews were well aware that the souls of the dead went to Sheol. And that was revealed to them by God. Some details can be read in this thread I did some time ago:
The Old Testament is concerned with recording God's dealings with the Jewish race. It does not go into any details about whatever revelations He made to the Gentiles after He brought the Jewish race into being. God had intended that the Jews evangelize the Gentiles, but they failed to to so. Before the Jewish Dispensation, there was the age of the Gentiles and the first several chapters of Genesis deals with that. But again, the Bible does not record all of God's dealings with the people of that time. The Bible records only what God saw fit to have recorded.
Why would you think that there wouldn't be a lot of literature around at that time which conflicted with other literature. During the intertestamental period there were all sorts of apocryphal stories being written. And Satan has always tried to discredit the Scriptures. One way to do that is to inspire a lot of writings which serve to confuse the issue as presented in the Scriptures.
God does in fact give certain men the spiritual gift of pastor/teacher as revealed in Ephesians 4:11-16. And the Bible is quite clear that those who die without Christ will spend eternity in the lake of fire. Theres nothing to misinterpret concerning that.
As Adam's and our deaths are real, Christ's death was physical. Show me a verse indicating Christ's blood was metaphorical for 'spiritual death'. It's another term/idea totally foreign to scripture.
I said sheol was not even hinted at in the Creation Story of Genesis at all. It merely speaks of our soul - 'nephesh' (closer to 'living being') dying, along with the 'souls' of animals perishing in the flood. God's 'breath' is in all creation; not just in humans.
The only justification I see for ET in Jewish writings is pure vengence, hatred for enemies, and an inflated sense of self-righteousness. Be careful of equating God's justice (not his blind need to torture) with 'Satan discrediting'. The same texts that introduced ET like Enoch contain a wealth of heretical ideas.
As Adam's and our deaths are real, Christ's death was physical. Show me a verse indicating Christ's blood was metaphorical for 'spiritual death'. It's another term/idea totally foreign to scripture.
That is the same agument that people use to refute the rapture, or the trinity. 'Show me a verse that says this or that.'
Jesus did not save us by bleeding to death on the Cross. He actually lost very little blood. Nor was His physical death what paid the penalty for our sins. I have already told you I think twice now, that Jesus was judged for our sins during the last three hours that He hung on the cross. God the Father caused a supernatural darkness to come over the area at the time the judgment began (Matthew 27:45). During that judgment, God the Father had to turn away from Jesus. This is why Jesus cried out, ''My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me.'' (Matt 27:46). And when God the Father was done judging our sins, Jesus said it is finished - Tetelestai. A reference to the fact that the debt of our sins had been paid. Jesus' literal blood had nothing to do with it. His physical death afterwards was so that He could be resurrected which was the next step. But the payment for our sins was paid for while Jesus was still physically alive. Since the penalty for sin was spiritual death, the substitutionary death of Christ had to be a spiritual death.
Quote:
I said sheol was not even hinted at in the Creation Story of Genesis at all. It merely speaks of our soul - 'nephesh' (closer to 'living being') dying, along with the 'souls' of animals perishing in the flood. God's 'breath' is in all creation; not just in humans.
As I said, Adam was created body, soul, and spirit. It is the human spirit which allows a person to have a relationship with God. Not the soul. It was Adams human spirit which died the moment he disobeyed God, not his soul. Adam had been warned that he would die the very day he ate the fruit. Obviously he did not die physically at that time. But he did die spiritually. We can't know what else God might have said to Adam concerning the consequences of his disobedience that was not recorded in the Bible. Maybe He didn't say anything more than is recorded. ''...Dying, you shall die.''
Quote:
The only justification I see for ET in Jewish writings is pure vengence, hatred for enemies, and an inflated sense of self-righteousness. Be careful of equating God's justice (not his blind need to torture) with 'Satan discrediting'. The same texts that introduced ET like Enoch contain a wealth of heretical ideas.
The Bible is the word of God and what it says about the lake of fire is from God Himself. Not from the imagination of men. The justification for eternal punishment in the lake of fire is God's perfect righteousness. I did not equate Gods justice with 'Satan discrediting.' Man owes God perfect righteousness. He can't meet the requirement. So one of the Persons of the Godhead became a man, went to the cross and paid the penalty for our sins. When a person receives Christ as Savior, God the Father imputes His perfect righteousness to that person and declares him justified. As a result, God sees His own perfect righteousness in the believer. But if a person dies without Christ, he has only his own relative righteousness to stand on and is condemned on that basis to the lake of fire. It is just that simple.
I'll make it simple. Jesus said that the lake of fire is real with Gehenna symbolically representing the lake of fire. Therefore, since Jesus said it is real, then it is real.
Mike, I can't get to your post right now, which is full of nonsense, but just let me say: you are so upside down. Tradition has got you so blinded. The JEWS were judged in GEHENNA (hell) in 70 A.D., where there was a great amount of weeping and gnashing (gritting) of teeth!! They have been wandering in outer (spiritual) darkness!! The lake of fire has nothing whatsoever to do with this. The angels are tormented in the PRESENCE of the lamb! Don't you know you shall judge angels??
Last edited by herefornow; 10-21-2010 at 02:15 AM..
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
That is the same agument that people use to refute the rapture, or the trinity. 'Show me a verse that says this or that.'
Jesus did not save us by bleeding to death on the Cross. He actually lost very little blood. Nor was His physical death what paid the penalty for our sins. I have already told you I think twice now, that Jesus was judged for our sins during the last three hours that He hung on the cross. God the Father caused a supernatural darkness to come over the area at the time the judgment began (Matthew 27:45). During that judgment, God the Father had to turn away from Jesus. This is why Jesus cried out, ''My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me.'' (Matt 27:46). And when God the Father was done judging our sins, Jesus said it is finished - Tetelestai. A reference to the fact that the debt of our sins had been paid. Jesus' literal blood had nothing to do with it. His physical death afterwards was so that He could be resurrected which was the next step. But the payment for our sins was paid for while Jesus was still physically alive. Since the penalty for sin was spiritual death, the substitutionary death of Christ had to be a spiritual death.
As I said, Adam was created body, soul, and spirit. It is the human spirit which allows a person to have a relationship with God. Not the soul. It was Adams human spirit which died the moment he disobeyed God, not his soul. Adam had been warned that he would die the very day he ate the fruit. Obviously he did not die physically at that time. But he did die spiritually. We can't know what else God might have said to Adam concerning the consequences of his disobedience that was not recorded in the Bible. Maybe He didn't say anything more than is recorded. ''...Dying, you shall die.''
The Bible is the word of God and what it says about the lake of fire is from God Himself. Not from the imagination of men. The justification for eternal punishment in the lake of fire is God's perfect righteousness. I did not equate Gods justice with 'Satan discrediting.' Man owes God perfect righteousness. He can't meet the requirement. So one of the Persons of the Godhead became a man, went to the cross and paid the penalty for our sins. When a person receives Christ as Savior, God the Father imputes His perfect righteousness to that person and declares him justified. As a result, God sees His own perfect righteousness in the believer. But if a person dies without Christ, he has only his own relative righteousness to stand on and is condemned on that basis to the lake of fire. It is just that simple.
I'll make it simple. Jesus said that the lake of fire is real with Gehenna symbolically representing the lake of fire. Therefore, since Jesus said it is real, then it is real.
Therefore, do you believe Jesus Christ or not?
Do you believe Jesus Christ when he said all those who do not believe in the son will die? Do you believe God when he says that if you eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you will die? Or do you side with Satan, various other religions, Roman Catholicism steeped in tradition and those Protestants who have kept some of these traditions, and all those theologians who rejoiced at the prospect of their fellow man suffering forever (Tertullian, Augustine.etc). Yes, they derived joy from this. You have to harden your heart to actually partake of that. The only way I see myself sharing your view and embracing it, Mike, is to totally harden my heart to the suffering of others.
Do you believe Jesus Christ when he said all those who do not believe in the son will die? Do you believe God when he says that if you eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you will die? Or do you side with Satan, various other religions, Roman Catholicism steeped in tradition and those Protestants who have kept some of these traditions, and all those theologians who rejoiced at the prospect of their fellow man suffering forever (Tertullian, Augustine.etc). Yes, they derived joy from this. You have to harden your heart to actually partake of that. The only way I see myself sharing your view and embracing it, Mike, is to totally harden my heart to the suffering of others.
You have the right to believe whatever you want. You have the right to reject the truth. You'll answer for it, but you have the right.
No, believing what the word of God teaches does not require hardening your heart. It is those who have hardened their hearts to the truth who reject the reality of the unbelievers eternal sentence in the lake of fire.
If you want the truth, here it is.
John 3:36 ''He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.
Matthew 25:41 ''Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels...46] And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.''
You have the right to believe whatever you want. You have the right to reject the truth. You'll answer for it, but you have the right.
You, too, Mike. Careful, there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
No, believing what the word of God teaches does not require hardening your heart. It is those who have hardened their hearts to the truth who reject the reality of the unbelievers eternal sentence in the lake of fire.
Religion has a very hard heart and is floating in a sea of paganism. It's rather sickening to watch, but I'm feeling hopeful some will get out of the harlot.
The lake of fire is mentioned in a book of heavy visions and hyperbole. The "lake of fire" or the "le lac de feu" is made up of God and his saints. I keep trying to tell you, but you just don't want to understand, I guess. Remember the ol' river of fire flowing from God's throne in Daniel??
Tormented in the presence of the lamb.
To listen to the Church, one would think that Satan is some silly clown that can be poked fun at and tossed around like some rag doll. I have heard televangelists make statements similar to this: "Tonight we are going to take hold of that Old Serpent, Satan the Devil, by his tail, and toss him out on his ear!" Oh, really? Most such preachers would not recognize Satan if they were shaking hands with him and staring him in the eyes. They know not his appearance; they know not his doctrines; they know not his location; they know not his plan; they know not his influence on their church or his deceptive powers over their own minds.
John 3:36 ''He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.
Yep. If you know God you have eternal life, because God is eternal. You now have spiritual life. Yipee!! Otherwise, you are rolling around in darkness and will have to deal with the consequences of your actions; kind of like David. But, God's wrath does not remain forever. Mercy over judgment. Be like your dad, Mike. We are commanded.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
Matthew 25:41 ''Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels...46] And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.''
God alone is eternal and he alone is the eternal fire. You know those words in the original language are "eonian." God works within the eons.
Let's try yet again:
Ancient writings, other than the Scriptures, show how aion and aionios were used in the ordinary affairs of that time period. Long ago in Rome, periodic games were held. These were referred to as "secular" games. Herodian, who wrote in Greek about the end of the second century A.D., called these aionios, "eonian," games. In no sense could those games have been eternal.
"Let me say to Bible students that we must be very careful how we use the word 'eternity.' We have fallen into great error in our constant usage of that word. There is no word in the whole Book of God corresponding with our eternal..." -G. Campbell Morgan
"If by 'eonian,' endless time were meant, then what could be more than endless time?""All the way through it is never feasible to understand 'aionios' as everlasting."
-Dr. Nigel Turner
Some of us are finally free for the first time in our lives, Mike. We aren't going back in.
Last edited by herefornow; 10-21-2010 at 05:59 PM..
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