Can you be called a Christian if you do not believe the OT? (Revelation, scriptures)

[HotinAZ]

Well, I definately will respond to this.

Originally Posted by Ilene Wright

Who here has claimed they don't believe in God and still claims to be a Christian?

Many claim to be a Christian, yet do not believe in the God portrayed in the Word. Yahweh, that is. Do you? Can you handle all that happened in the OT, while reconciling the fact that He is love? They seem to not be able to.

You have taken your argument with Ironmaw and others and started a new thread just to twist what was being said by UR's.

Actuallly, I have hit my limit on patience. Sorry, but to claim most of the OT was written by blind men who had not a clue who and what God was, and still claim to be a Christian,,well,,,a line needs to be drawn in the sand.

You have an agenda to discredit UR's as being Christian simply because you don't agree, even though at one point you very much agreed with UR.

Most people who believe in UR can accept the fact that MILLIONS of people were wiped out by God in ancient times, including myself when I believed that way. I did not discount the Word to satisfy my agenda and doctrine. I tried to reconcile it, but I never just tossed it out as being written by ignorant blind men, when it is GOD INSPIRED.

Stop being so darn wishy-washy and pointing fingers because you can't make up your own mind as to what YOU believe.

I KNOW exactly what I believe. And yes, having believed in that nonsense for a spell, the OT actually helped set me back on the right path. You see, the WORD is ALWAYS right, and NEVER WRONG. If your interpretation of it is scewed, then maybe YOUR doctrine is, as well.

And wishy washy? Isn't that like the pot calling the kettle black, coming from a past fundy into a cult? Sad, because now you have parked there without even seeking further instruction from the WORD of GOD.

UR's believe in God, just not YOUR version of Him.

The 'version' of God the Father and His Son that I believe in, is straight from the Word. So yes,,,if you do not believe in the God of the Bible, BOTH TESTAMENTS, then maybe you believe in something that only masquerades as light.

[TKramar]

You don't have to believe in the Bible to believe in God,

[pneuma]

Originally Posted by HotinAZ

It really is quite simple. There are some on here claiming to be Christians, who discount the OT and even Yahweh as God the Father.

So, can a person discount the OT and still claim to be a Christian?

I know what a Christian is, but I also know what Paul said:

ALL Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

EEk gad I have ponted out time and again how Jesus corrected what the lying pen of the scribes has added to the scriptures Jer.8:8

And I have said time and again I beleive all scripture but I don't beleive everything in our bibles is scripture. again Jer8:8 say the lying pen of the scribes added to the law, Jesus corrected them concerning some of this, eye for an eye, forswear yourself, and love your neighbor and hate your enemy.

I have also shown a couple of interpolations that were added to the scriptures, one supposing to be by written by John to enhence the belief in the trinity and the other one the last part of mark chapter 16.

1 John 5:7
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Not in any early manuscripts

Witness Mk.16:9-20

Not in any early manuscripts


Two independent witnesses, Jer. and Justin Martyr, tell us that the lying pen of the scribes added to the law of Moses and that the scribes took out scripture that pointed clearly to Jesus being the Messiah. Plus no scolar worth his salt believes 1Jn 5:7 or the last part of Mark 16 are in the original language.

So add it all up and what do you get?

You get just as I said, in our bibles is scripture but not everything in our bibles is scripture.

People don't like it but those are the facts and none here have been able to deny it.

I find it ironic though that those who beleive everything in our bibles is scripture but don't beleive what Jer. said in Jer.8:8.

so as to your question

So, can a person discount the OT and still claim to be a Christian?

Yes they can, nothing is said about a person having to beleive in the bible to be a christian, to be a christian one only has to beleive in and follow Jesus Christ.

And part of following Jesus is taking EVERY thought captive to HIM to see what He says about it.

What does Jesus say

eye for and eye--NO

forswear yourself-- NO

hate your enemy--NO

So all you bible beleiver go ahead and beleive everything in the bible is the word of God, eye for and eye,forswear yourself,hate your enemy and myself I'll beleive the WORD Himself when He says NO to what you beleive is His word.

When it is all said and done you bible beleivers believe what the lying pen of the scribes say over what Jesus says, you are a follower of the bible not a follower of Christ.

So the real question should be can one follow the bible instead of Christ and still call themselves a christian?

[Ilene Wright]

[quote]

Originally Posted by HotinAZ

Many claim to be a Christian, yet do not believe in the God portrayed in the Word. Yahweh, that is. Do you? Can you handle all that happened in the OT, while reconciling the fact that He is love? They seem to not be able to.

Like I said before, we (UR's) do not believe in YOUR interpreted version of God. That's what upsets you so. The writers of the OT WERE blinded and Ironmaw has done an excellent job trying to explain all of this to you but you continue to make false claims that we (UR's) do not believe in God. That is a lie.

Actuallly, I have hit my limit on patience. Sorry, but to claim most of the OT was written by blind men who had not a clue who and what God was, and still claim to be a Christian,,well,,,a line needs to be drawn in the sand.

Your limit on patience has no bearing on the truth, and the truth is you are making false claims and accusations. I agree with what Ironmaw has been trying to tell you and the only line that needs to be drawn is between what is true and false as far as accusations.

Most people who believe in UR can accept the fact that MILLIONS of people were wiped out by God in ancient times, including myself when I believed that way. I did not discount the Word to satisfy my agenda and doctrine. I tried to reconcile it, but I never just tossed it out as being written by ignorant blind men, when it is GOD INSPIRED.

Just because someone wrote down that "God told them to do it" doesn't make it true!! The ignorant people of the OT obviously, without a shadow of a doubt, got all of their wires crossed when it came to what they THOUGHT God was telling them to do. Jesus came to set it all straight and to show the true nature of the Father, which is love and light. I don't attribute everything that went wrong in the OT to God because there was so much ignorance and arrogance.

I KNOW exactly what I believe. And yes, having believed in that nonsense for a spell, the OT actually helped set me back on the right path. You see, the WORD is ALWAYS right, and NEVER WRONG. If your interpretation of it is scewed, then maybe YOUR doctrine is, as well.

LOL!! NO you don't!! We've seen you go from one belief to the other over time and your constant "epiphanies" are laughable. What's next?

And wishy washy? Isn't that like the pot calling the kettle black, coming from a past fundy into a cult? Sad, because now you have parked there without even seeking further instruction from the WORD of GOD.

You can't call me wishy-washy simply because I found the truth and I'm sticking with it. I don't change my mind with every "new thought" that I have or "epiphany" that I THINK that I have. I've parked, you haven't. How do you know I haven't sought further instruction from the word of God? I most certainly have and continue to do so and this is just another one of your false claims and accusations.

The 'version' of God the Father and His Son that I believe in, is straight from the Word. So yes,,,if you do not believe in the God of the Bible, BOTH TESTAMENTS, then maybe you believe in something that only masquerades as light.

Your "interpreted" version HotinAZ. Just because UR's choose to see God as Jesus portrayed Him and not the "OLD" testament (it's called "old" for a reason) which was written by very confused people does not mean we aren't Christians. I know you would love to be the judge and jury as far as who gets to call themselves a Christian but you're not and thank God for that.

[HotinAZ]

So the real question should be can one follow the bible instead of Christ and still call themselves a christian?

Nope. Easy answer.

But to discount the Word and claim it is the lying pen of the scribes,,is well, ludicrous.

I agree, Jesus set things straight regarding Moses' Law, for it was HIS RIGHT to, since He hearlded a NEW Covenant, a BETTER WAY.

That is NOT what I am talking about, and it is funny almost that the UR's are using the 'eye for an eye', and not the fulfillment of scriptures that Jesus talked of, or the Psalms, or the Proverbs, or the Prophets, or even learning the Spiritual Significance of the Law itself.

I am talking about a blanket statement used by the UR people, claming Yahweh is not God, or that God would NOT destroy people,,because He is love, or other such things written in the Word, yet they discount it. They claim the writers of the OT were just blind, ignorant, and had their own agendas,,,when in fact the entire Word is a beautiful mosaic. A Masterpiece that is completely beautiful, when understood through the Spirit.

[pneuma]

Sorry, but to claim most of the OT was written by blind men who had not a clue who and what God was, and still claim to be a Christian,,well,,,a line needs to be drawn in the sand.

Have you not yet realised Hotin that those who worshiped God after the fashion you are telling us are the blind leaders of the blind. Jesus spoke that to the Pharisees and no one in their right minds would say the Pharisees did not believe in God for they most assuredly did. So how is it then that they are the blind leaders of the blind? It because they simple did not KNOW the FATHER.
All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him. 23And he turned him unto his disciples, and said privately, Blessed are the eyes which see the things that ye see: 24For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them

So go ahead and tell us how they were not blind when Jesus says they were.

[Finn_Jarber]

OT clarifies some qualities of God's character, and the NT clarifies other qualities. OT explains how seriously God takes sin, and what the concequences of rejection of God are, and the NT explains that despite of our weaknesses he still loves us and opens the doors to eternal life to all those who are faithful to Him. It is important to read both if you want to understand the true character of God. To embraze only one quality of God, is to ignore the other qualities, and then you are being dishonest with yourself. He is just, truthful, holy merciful, and loving, but he also judges sin. Most importantly he offers forgiveness.

[HotinAZ]

Originally Posted by Ilene Wright

Like I said before, we (UR's) do not believe in YOUR interpreted version of God.

My 'version' of who and what God is, is reflected by HIS WRITTEN WORD. HIS LIVING WORD. HIS SON!

That's what upsets you so. The writers of the OT WERE blinded and Ironmaw has done an excellent job trying to explain all of this to you but you continue to make false claims that we (UR's) do not believe in God. That is a lie.

How can the writers be blinded? I agree the mass of people were,,,but the WRITERS? They were INSPIRED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT TO WRITE WHAT THEY WROTE. How dare you discount that.

Your limit on patience has no bearing on the truth, and the truth is you are making false claims and accusations.

Moderator cut: Inappropriate I can see your ignorance in your post. I am posting the truth about what YOU believe, and it is a lie from the father of ALL lies.

I agree with what Ironmaw has been trying to tell you and the only line that needs to be drawn is between what is true and false as far as accusations.

How can they be false, when you are agreeing with the lies? People can read it themselves!

Just because someone wrote down that "God told them to do it" doesn't make it true!! The ignorant people of the OT obviously, without a shadow of a doubt, got all of their wires crossed when it came to what they THOUGHT God was telling them to do.

Really? So had they NOT done ALL that is in them,,,how could Jesus' come from the very covenant, the very Law, the very people that God personally had to interviene for,,, to INSURE they would remain until the time came to hearld the King? And you claim they are just ignorant? You claim their wires are crossed? WOW!!!

Jesus came to set it all straight and to show the true nature of the Father, which is love and light.

This was also shown in the OT which Jesus quoted REPEATEDLY. It was their interpretations of it that were scewed,,not what was written down.

I don't attribute everything that went wrong in the OT to God because there was so much ignorance and arrogance.

I bet you don't, for if you did,,,your false theology falls COMPLETELY apart. Moderator cut: edit

LOL!! NO you don't!! We've seen you go from one belief to the other over time and your constant "epiphanies" are laughable. What's next?

Nice try. I went from UR to CI here on CD. Only once did I go from one doctrine to another since 2008. I was seeking, and still am seeking,,,and will ALWAYS be seeking further Truths into His Word,,,but nice attack though. Not going to work.

You can't call me wishy-washy simply because I found the truth and I'm sticking with it. I don't change my mind with every "new thought" that I have or "epiphany" that I THINK that I have. I've parked, you haven't.

Agreed. I haven't parked because I am not passed from this time yet. My journey is far from complete, and I still have a LOT to learn. What is the point of this?

How do you know I haven't sought further instruction from the word of God? I most certainly have and continue to do so and this is just another one of your false claims and accusations.

BECAUSE YOU PARKED. Being shown a lie for what it is, doesn't mean you remain IN the lie. Sounds all nice and wishy washy,,,but listen to what you are saying. You are calling Spiritually INSPIRED people of the OT that wrote it,,,ignorant and arrogant. Boy, I can't wait for you to see them on YOUR day.

Your "interpreted" version HotinAZ. Just because UR's choose to see God as Jesus portrayed Him and not the "OLD" testament (it's called "old" for a reason) which was written by very confused people does not mean we aren't Christians.

Really? Did Jesus COMMAND worship? Think about that, Betsey. He ALWAYS referred BACK to the Father. Even when He quoted Scriptures. Even in Revelation. How does one take the Son without the Father, when the Father is the One who JUDGES????

I know you would love to be the judge and jury as far as who gets to call themselves a Christian but you're not and thank God for that.

Actually, there are certain guidelines to be followed,,,and believing the Father and His WRITTEN WORD, which hearlded the birth of His Son is one of them.

[pneuma]

That is NOT what I am talking about, and it is funny almost that the UR's are using the 'eye for an eye', and not the fulfillment of scriptures that Jesus talked of, or the Psalms, or the Proverbs, or the Prophets, or even learning the Spiritual Significance of the Law itself.

Do you or do you not beleive Jer when he said the lying pen of the scribes added to the law of Moses?

If you do what make you think everything written in the OT is actually from God?

I am talking about a blanket statement used by the UR people, claming Yahweh is not God

Who here has said this?

, or that God would NOT destroy people,,because He is love, or other such things written in the Word, yet they discount it.

God cannot do evil Hotin and the mass murdering of innocent woman and children is evil even in the eyes of man.

Is it not better to understand that when God said kill your enemies that He was telling them to make their enemies their freinds thus killing their enemy.

Is that not exactly what Jesus did, and now the gentiles who were without hope are grafted into Israel.

They claim the writers of the OT were just blind, ignorant, and had their own agendas,,

They were blind and ignorant hotin, killing in the name of God thinking they were doing Him a service.

These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended. 2They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service. 3And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me[/color]



,

when in fact the entire Word is a beautiful mosaic. A Masterpiece that is completely beautiful, when understood through the Spirit.

I agree, however not everything in our bibles is the word of God.

[Marlbron]

A Christian is one who has put on Christ via baptism. Believe in the old testament is not part of it