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Actually, yes they are. Jesus did NOT nullify the Law, He fulfilled it. Completely. He did not go against anyone for what was practiced in the Law, and still showed the Spiritual side of the Law. For example,,,the stoning of the woman for adultry. He didn't tell them the Law was void. He exposed their own hypocrisy to them.
And we must remember this. Jesus DIED based upon the Law requirements according to the Pharisees of blasphemy. God's original requirememnts written down. Yes, they did so out of sheer ignorance.
But, He did this to hearld a NEW COVENANT. This is why He isn't a Levitical Priest, and is a Melchizedek Priest. Heb 7:12 explain WHY Jesus did and said what He said. He brought forth a change in the Law. 7:18 explains the setting aside of the former commandments of the Law. Chapters 8-9-10 explain this in detail of WHY the First Covenant has passed and the Second has commenced.
But in Exodus chapter 21, we see the original 'eye for an eye' statement, made by God the Father Himself.
"But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise."
This is a further expansion of the Noahic Laws about murder:
"Whoever sheds man's blood, By man his blood shall be shed, For in the image of God He made man."
It wasn't just Moses that started the eye for an eye. It has been around since the earliest times. It is called justice. Yes, it can be extreme, which is why the judges and kings had all the power. They interpreted the Laws and judged based upon what was written down.
Jesus did show us His Way, a better way. He showed us that no matter how perfect the Law was, man could not hold to it. He did though perfectly. He showed us that the religious leaders and govermental leaders did not want to relinquish their power over the people concerning matters of the Law and their personal interpretations of the Law.
Therefor, He brought us INTO His Covenant, which is a better one in which us mere men can, and should follow. His perfect Law of Love. Does this discount or nullify the Law? It cannot, for it is perfect and IS the Law of the Father. Romans 7:12
So, we must take the whole counsel of the Word to further understand where we are at today. How does one understand the Second Covenant, without the First? This is where confusion comes forth.
Hope this is making some sense. It does to me, but sometimes my words get all tangled up, because there is so much to say concerning this.
Peace,
Tony
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Originally Posted by Albert Finch
There are 332 prophecies in the Old Testament concerning Jesus that are fulfilled in the New Testament. How is it possible that a Christian cannot believe in the Old Testament?
Anyone wishing a list of these prophecies can contact me.
It is not a matter of the prophets, its a matter of the law, or Torah ... Which teaches that we should return evil for evil in equal measure without mercy, or eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth, which Jesus rejected as being false when he taught to love our enemies and to turn the other cheek and to bless and pray for those who hurt us.
Jer 8:8
How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law(Hebrew- torah) of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?
The above verse which is from one of the prophets teaches plainly that the scribes handled the Torah(law - the first five books of the bible which contain the law of Moses) of moses falsely and twisted it so that it misrepresents the true Character and nature of God who Jesus perfectly represented as the very express image of deity. The same Jesus who taught that eye for an eye is evil ...
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 11-30-2010 at 12:15 PM..
If you don't believe in the Old Testament, you don't believe in the New one either...you don't believe the Word of God if you only pick and choose the "pieces-and-parts" of it that you can easily twist into something that suits you! PERIOD!...NO MATTER WHAT YOU SAY!
Verna, the Old Testament points to Christ, but it is not Christ's spirit, for the most part. Bashing babies, raping children, charging interest, taking advantage of weaker nations, not loving your enemies=not Jesus. Why was Jesus so angry with the religious?
The Spirit is-->>>Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, meekness.........
I'm only guessing here, but the term "Christian" implies a belief in Christ, does it not?
Then you don't have to believe anything out of a book.
Interesting and seemingly logical thought, ... but, where else does one get their knowledge of Jesus Christ, if not out of The Book; God's inspired revelation of Himself ... the Bible?
Therefore, if one believes in Christ, based on that 'book', how can one deny other parts of the same 'book' without undermining what they believe? -- Therein lies the problem with picking and choosing what one will believe about "God, who is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow."
Believing in Christ, not the OT, is what defines one as a Christian, but there is a difference between 'not understanding the OT' and 'renouncing it!' The latter makes one's claim to believe in Christ and the NT, suspect.
I'm "renouncing" both parts of it. Before the printing press, few people were actually literate enough to read, and they still managed to believe in their religion--whatever it might have happened to be. I'm not even sure how long it took for literacy to be the norm, as it is today (but there are still people out there, they say, who can't read).
True Jesus fulfilled the law completely. And that He fulfilled the law completely should tell everyone something Tony. What it should tell them is that an eye for an eye, etc. is of the Law of Moses but rather of the lying pen of the scribes. For we NEVER see Jesus endorsing them by their fulfillment.
Well, that can be said of the WHOLE Law, which I would have to HIGHLY disagree with. Blood for blood is justice. Take it how you would, but it is still justice.
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Eye for an eye- NO
Old Covenant= Yes
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Forswear yourself –NO
Old Covenant=Yes
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Hate your enemy- NO
Old Covenant=Yes
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NO is not an endorsement of these things brother and Jesus fulfilling the Law is never seen doing any one of them in His lifetime so how is it that you believe He fulfilled them?
I never said Jesus 'endorsed' them, nor did I say He did. What I said was that Jesus fulfilled the Law, completely. Of course, we now know Jesus was talking about the SPIRITUAL requirements of the Law, which we now know to be higher than tribal legalities, which is what the 'eye for an eye' is. It is people's dealing with other people's when they forsake the Spiritual Law, and violate the Commandments. The justice involved in resolving the dispute is the 'eye for an eye' verses. And it is just.
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To fulfill them one would have to take a life for a life, and eye for an eye etc but we NEVER see Jesus doing these things.
Of course not, but God did. Ever hear about what happened in 70AD? Jesus even warned them, but still they did not listen. Vengence IS the Lord's. He doesn't have to go by what we feel and think. He is God, the Potter,,,not the clay. His ways are NOT our ways.
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On the contrary He says NO don’t DO THEM.
Not for His benefit, but ours. We WERE supposed to live in harmony with each other, and God's Spiritual Laws and our communities following them is what brings about utopia. Most people say this is impossible. I hold out hope, yet. But, if you read Revelations, which I hope you DO believe, and not think it was made up by some lying scribe,,,then check out REV 19:11-15
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This just proves my point Tony. The law is written in our hearts, the very same law that God gave on the mount, the very same law Jesus endorsed and NOWHERE is it stated or shown that in the heart of Jesus that we should take an eye for an eye or life for a life. What happened to vengeance is mine saith the Lord I will repay if man is to take another man’s life.
It said in the Second Covenant days, the Law would be written on our hearts. Not then. Not to those people.
But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
This is not talking about the mount. Jesus showed us His Covenant, His ways and how we SHOULD deal with people. Not like they did. In this sense, I do agree with Mystic because he said these were ignorant peoples. They were. Morality had to be dictated TO them, because it wasn't written IN them.
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Is an eye for an eye written in your heart brother?
Is hating your enemy written in your heart brother?
Is a life for a life written in your heart brother?
If NOT why?
Well, it is written on my carnal heart. As it is all people, if they are human. It is only when we walk in the Spirit that it is not, and that beast, that sometimes rears her ugly head, is subdued.
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And if you believe it is then you are in total contradiction to Jesus for He says NO.
Jesus never said this. Jesus showed us HOW to walk in the Spirit, as that was what He did. His teachings showed us the Way, the Truth, and leads to Life. Show me please where Jesus said our own carnaility was wiped out.
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Tony you are missing what the Hebrew writer is saying.
Actually, I have a pretty good grasp of Hebrews. It was one of the first books I got into. But let's continue.
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The law of God is spiritual (for the law is spiritual according to Paul) not carnal, that which is carnal comes from man.
Right, but breaking the Law is NOT spiritual, it is carnal. This is the war Paul speaks of in Romans 7. It is only when we are IN Christ, walking in the Spirit that the Law,,,really of ONLY Love,,on which hangs ALL commandments stem from. Then the commandments written in stone are a childs reading,,a school lesson,,or tutor,,so to speak. We all have fallen. We all have need of a Savior. We all have need for the Spiritual Law to be written on our hearts, to show us HOW to love, to learn, to grow,,,as His Children.
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Who is made, not after the [law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
Man originally was, but broke the commandment. See, Adam fell because He didn't LOVE God enough to obey Him. The charge was simple. The falling was death. It was his carnality that bested him. It looked good. It was desirous. It made one wise..
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And the change of the law was not a change (as in God changed His law) the change of the law is that it moved from an outward application to an inward application and in that inward law there is no room for an eye for an eye scenario.
Yes, the change happened that God poured forth His Spirit, and to those who call on Him, He has given us our own Mosaic encounter on the mount. And instead of stone tablets, He writes them where they have the most impact, and are sometimes broken, but never forgot.
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Also the Hebrew writer is not talking about the LAW he is talking about the law of sacrifices, TWO different laws.
Actually, he is talking about both. He is just showing the contrasts between the two covenants.
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Gods law say thou shalt NOT kill, it does not then turn around and say murder a bunch of innocent women and children.
And this is why I do not agree with war, unless it is face to face combat, and we are defending our homes ONLY.
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God honors His WORD above His name brother and if Gods word is eye for an eye, life for a life it would still be so today as it would have been the WORD of God.
Then really, there are not two convenants,,,just the one. I disagree. The first was made for their time. The second was made for ALL time. We don't need 'eye for an eye' in this country, because we already have laws dealiing with crime and punishment. They didn't, and their laws needed to be brought forth,,and since God was their King until Saul,,it was His duty to give them their legal system.
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However, we know if we are honest within ourselves that Jesus is the WORD and He says NO to each one of these. And that He says NO shows forth abundantly that an eye for an eye and a life for a life is NOT Gods WORD.
I disagree. Once again, Jesus showed us a better way. A NEW way. That is why Jesus always said "it is written, BUT I say". He did not say the scribes lied, otherwise He could have clarified that right then and there. He didn't. He quoted it, and then amended it. "You have heard that the ancients were TOLD"...by WHO? A lying scribe, or TO Moses by God?
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It was not the law given to Moses or any other Tony these all come in because of the lying pen of the scribes.
Sorry, but you are wrong.
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Listen, if I was a scribe back then and I wanted the people to follow what I said what better way to get them to believe that what I said was from God then by attributing what I said to Moses.
But that is a cop-out. Anyone can say that. Today, they are called translators and not scribes. But to attribute the things we don't agree with God doing or saying, by attributing them to a LIE, made by some scribe? Does not that verge almost on blasphemy, because it is attributed to evil? I am just asking, not implicating.
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Brother we see this very thing still today, pseudonyms have been used from the beginning of writing Tony and to believe they only happened at the start of Christianity (we see them all over the place) is to livewith blinders on.
See, I do have a problem with this. The scribes were carefully trained to copy the Torah,,,to the slightest title and jot. Not one single word could be changed, not anything of the sort. Even if the scribes changed something, they could not change them all. The Truth would always remain. Always. Even though the modern computer has shown that 70% of the surviving Torahs contain errors, these errors are always in the minute detail, with VERY FEW adding or removing words. Hense, the Torah is the BEST preserved book in the world. There are copies that go back thousands of years.
So, to say some scribe added a bunch of 'eye for an eye' things on his own, is well, highly improbable. A regualr scribal copy cannot be used in ceremonies or the readings in synagoues. It HAS to be a halakhically `kosher' Torah scroll. It cannot have even the slightest defect, or mispronunciation.
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Tony it is the SAME law today that is written in our hearts that God wrote in stone in the time of Moses, it is a PERFECT LAW.
Actually, it isn't. The Laws written on our hearts are Spiritual in nature, founded in Love,,for a spiritual being. The Law given to Moses was for a carnal people bent on destruction through evil desires. This is why there is much conflict between Fundies and nonfundies. Between 'law-keepers' and 'covenant-keepers'.
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Again brother it is the SAME LAW, they are not two different laws they are ONE LAW
How can it be the same Law? Jesus Himself changed the written Law for the Spiritual Law. But this must be talked about later, as I explained it above already.
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Tony the first covenant and the second covenant is not based on the LAW (as it is the same law)per say it is based on sacrifice.The sacrifice of bulls and goats and the sacrifice of Jesus did NOT change Gods LAW (in the sense you believe)it only changed the law of sacrifice, NOT God’s holy, spiritual and perfect LAW.
Sure it is based upon the Law,as well as the sacrifice. The laws of the sacrifices and ordinances were ALL changed when Jesus hearlded a New Covenant. It is ALL Torah. One heavenly for spiritual people, and one earthly, for carnal people. Think of it as the flying scroll, for the heavenly.
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Brother you simply cannot equate God’s Holy Law with the law of sacrifice as though they are the same thing, yet that is exactly what you are doing.
It is ALL Law either way. Both sets of Law are Holy, Just, and Good. Both are Godly, from God. But, you may have a law written on YOUR heart, for you,,that I do not have. I could have thousands, while you could have 1. It all depends on the person, and what the struggles are.
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Tony time and again we see the ignorance of the people of old and what they attributed to God but was NOT of God.
Of old? We see this even today. Ignorance is ignorance, and it doesn't matter the times or seasons.
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The people of old believed in a God who could do evil, is there not evil in the city and has the Lord not done it,
Well, you would have to define evil for that statement to stand. Casting judgement on a city for wickedness is NOT evil,,,it is just.
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Yet time and again we see Jesus correcting them of their error (the error I must say because of the lying pen of the scribes) a good tree CANNOT bring forth evil fruit, we are to either make the tree good and the fruit good or the tree evil and the fruit evil, Jesus was showing us God is not just good He was showing us God is ONLY and can be ONLY good.
But who are we,,as men,,,to question what is good and right in the eyes of God? We are to do what we are commanded, and God is the One who commands. We follow, He leads. He is OUR God, not the other way around. God is NOT the tree,,,He CREATED the tree.
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Yet time and again in the OT we see the people attributing to God evil. And the very same thing they did back then people are doing today because they refuse to listen to ONLY JESUS and those He revealed the Father to.
Again, you are talking apples and oranges. Spiritual, and carnal. Both war constantly with each other,,,continually. Jesus showed us the Spiritual side of the Father, and His Law. He showed us Love, and Mercy. But you cannot remove, wrath, vengence, and judgement from the Father, otherwise God would NOT be a Just God.
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Tony because within man is evil and good they have taken God and made Him after the image of corruptible man saying God is a God of both evil and good.
He is! Haven't you read? You are telling me that He isn't? The very same passages you pull from Matt 5 also speak of God being the God of both good and evil. Righteous and unrighteous. Or am I misunderstanding this?
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They blamed God then and still do today for all the evil in this world, but Jesus showed and told us God the Father is NOTHING like what people believe Him to be.
God cannot DO evil, but God can permit evil. He permits it, by allowing it.
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He is uncorruptable, CANNOT do evil, cannot lie
Agreed.
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He is Love divine, pure and simple brother God IS love and love does NOT repay an eye for an eye or a life for a life, love simply FORGIVES for they know not what they do.
But, see. YOU are the one now attributing man's dealing and laws with God's dealing and laws. Not the same thing, at all. Some people seem to think WE are the expressed image of God, when we are but a fallen race. How CAN we be the perfect image of God when we are from Adam, and have fallen? Jesus was the only perfect expressed image of the Father. Not Adam or those after Adam, namely us. When we are born again, of the Spirit, then we are after Jesus, the perfect man. When we walk in the Spirit, then we are perfect, through his perfection. But, still the war rages on, and the battles can be furious. But, like you said. God is LOVE, and this is where we recieve forgiveness for when we do fall. We remain righteous, though His righteousness.
Like Romans 8 says, over and over. IF WE WALK IN THE SPIRIT, and NOT THE FLESH, doesn't mean ALL walk in the spirit, even eventually,,nor does it mean all walk in the flesh,, continually.
It is not a matter of the prophets, its a matter of the law, or Torah ... Which teaches that we should return evil for evil in equal measure without mercy, or eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth, which Jesus rejected as being false when he taught to love our enemies and to turn the other cheek and to bless and pray for those who hurt us.
Jer 8:8
How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law(Hebrew- torah) of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?
The above verse which is from one of the prophets teaches plainly that the scribes handled the Torah(law - the first five books of the bible which contain the law of Moses) of moses falsely and twisted it so that it misrepresents the true Character and nature of God who Jesus perfectly represented as the very express image of deity. The same Jesus who taught that eye for an eye is evil ...
LOL, the scrribes also rewrote the prophets and the psalms, and the history. Not only just the Torah. In fact the Torah itself is VERY well preserved. Especially,, the halakhically `kosher' Torah scroll,,which is read on the Sabbaths and on the occasions. It must be very meticulously copied, jot and title. If one little defect is found, it is thrown out, and a correct copy brought in. And there is ALWAYS 1 absolutely correct copy, made from a perfect copy.
LOL, the scrribes also rewrote the prophets and the psalms, and the history. Not only just the Torah. In fact the Torah itself is VERY well preserved. Especially,, the halakhically `kosher' Torah scroll,,which is read on the Sabbaths and on the occasions. It must be very meticulously copied, jot and title. If one little defect is found, it is thrown out, and a correct copy brought in. And there is ALWAYS 1 absolutely correct copy, made from a perfect copy.
Oh i see, so Jer 8:8 is simply a lie ... ? And the law which tells us that we should kill everyone in the city we live in and burn it to the ground if someone believes and teaches another religion other than what we believe and teach also lives in that city is what you really believe God, whos nature and character was perfectly manifested in the life of Christ, wants us to do?
You really believe that eye for an eye "justice", as you call it, is the way God judges his creation, even though Christ told us not to return evil for evel and not to love our enemies in order to be like God who is himself kind to the wicked and the ungrateful?
Or are you saying that is who God was in the times of the old testament and that he changed in the time of the new testament?
I believe you are blinded by the veil in your reading of the old testament, just like the Jews in the times of Christ were who did not recognize Christ as their messiah, because what he taught contradicted what they believed the old testament told them about who God was and his true nature, as it was made example of by the law.
You try to reconcile love with hate and Good with evil all in the same one God, and that is why you are missing the mark where your understanding of the true nature of God is concerned, as he was exemplified not by the law but by the life of Christ who himself loved his enemies so much that he died for them, and prayed to the father to forgive the, the very same people that had him killed.
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 11-30-2010 at 05:30 PM..
Your post#66 is so twisted and carnal in its reasoning . . . it literally broke my heart to read it and see how earnestly you believe it. There is nothing JUST about vengeance, It is a human psychological weakness born of our carnal nature, period! God has NO HUMAN PSYCHOLOGICAL WEAKNESSES. That does not mean there are not negative consequences for those who perpetrate evil . . . but they are just consequences for stupidly not living within God's laws (ALL of them . . . like violating gravity). There is no vengeance or punishment involved . . . just consequences. I fear I am wasting my time trying to reach you, Hot . . . but I was so disturbed by the earnestness and certainty you pride yourself on in all your posts . . . I had to try. God Bless.
I'm "renouncing" both parts of it. Before the printing press, few people were actually literate enough to read, and they still managed to believe in their religion--whatever it might have happened to be. I'm not even sure how long it took for literacy to be the norm, as it is today (but there are still people out there, they say, who can't read).
I chose not to read it.
Great point! It took over 300 years to have the Bible we have today, yet somehow people were saved. Most of Christianity’s spread was due to oral storytelling, not reading.
If that is the case Robin then Jesus would not have said NO to an eye for an eye and a life for a life.
It does not matter what context you want to put it into Robin, Jesus knew what was written and He said NO to it.
You would be far better off beleiving Jesus than beleiving the lying pen of the scribes.
sad to say it but many still reject Jesus and hold to the same understanding of God as those who never really knew Him, they desired to but Jesus says they never saw and as they never saw why beleive them about the Father over the one who came to reveal the Father, Jesus Christ our Lord.
Originally the whole eye for and eye thing was Moses attempt to keep everyone inline and encourage them to follow the big ten similarly Jesus had His pluck out your eye analogy therefor Jesus didnt say no to it He clarified the options.
The context does matter, God never called for and eye for an eye Moses did. You the part about properly dividing scripture dont you, well that is a proper division over who did what.
Lying pen of the scribes? Where? Anything you dont like? Are you smarter than God? Ofcourse not, so what did they lie about? The commentaries of the time.
The Bible is not the work of the lying pen of the scribes but commentaries, traditions, and doctrines that are not Biblical are the work of the lying pen of the scribes.
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There is nothing JUST about vengeance, It is a human psychological weakness born of our carnal nature, period! God has NO HUMAN PSYCHOLOGICAL WEAKNESSES. That does not mean there are not negative consequences for those who perpetrate evil . . . but they are just consequences for stupidly not living within God's laws (ALL of them . . . like violating gravity). There is no vengeance or punishment involved . . . just consequences. I fear I am wasting my time trying to reach you, Hot . . . but I was so disturbed by the earnestness and certainty you pride yourself on in all your posts . . . I had to try.
