Can you be called a Christian if you do not believe the OT? (Torah, traditions)
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
If people do not believe the bible or reject some of it or most of it then they can still be saved but they will not be blessed in many blessing from the Lord and can fall away from poor foundation ...... I know one thing for sure is that if you need to be saved then the book of Acts 1-2 is critical for all believer to have faith to be saved ......................
Actually, yes they are. Jesus did NOT nullify the Law, He fulfilled it. Completely.
True Jesus fulfilled the law completely. And that He fulfilled the law completely should tell everyone something Tony. What it should tell them is that an eye for an eye, etc. is NOT[/color][color=#00b050] of the Law of Moses but rather of the lying pen of the scribes. For we NEVER see Jesus endorsing them by their fulfillment.
Eye for an eye- NO
Forswear yourself –NO
Hate your enemy- NO
NO is not an endorsement of these things brother and Jesus fulfilling the Law is never seen doing any one of them in His lifetime so how is it that you believe He fulfilled them?
To fulfill them one would have to take a life for a life, and eye for an eye etc but we NEVER see Jesus doing these things.
On the contrary He says NO don’t DO THEM.
Quote:
We have the Laws written on our hearts now. We don't need for ANYONE to tell us such matters if we seek on our own. IOW, there is no ignorance of the Truth.
This just proves my point Tony. The law is written in our hearts, the very same law that God gave on the mount, the very same law Jesus endorsed and NOWHERE is it stated or shown that in the heart of Jesus that we should take an eye for an eye or life for a life. What happened to vengeance is mine saith the Lord I will repay if man is to take another man’s life.
Is an eye for an eye written in your heart brother?
Is hating your enemy written in your heart brother?
Is a life for a life written in your heart brother?
If NOT why?
And if you believe it is then you are in total contradiction to Jesus for He says NO.
Quote:
But, He did this to hearld a NEW COVENANT. This is why He isn't a Levitical Priest, and is a Melchizedek Priest. Heb 7:12 explain WHY Jesus did and said what He said. He brought forth a change in the Law. 7:18 explains the setting aside of the former commandments of the Law. Chapters 8-9-10 explain this in detail of WHY the First Covenant has passed and the Second has commenced.
Tony you are missing what the Hebrew writer is saying.
The law of God is spiritual (for the law is spiritual according to Paul) not carnal, that which is carnal comes from man.
[color=#00b050]Who is made, not after the [law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
And the change of the law was not a change (as in God changed His law) the change of the law is that it moved from an outward application to an inward application and in that inward law there is no room for an eye for an eye scenario.
Also the Hebrew writer is not talking about the LAW he is talking about the law of sacrifices, TWO different laws.
Gods law say thou shalt NOT kill, it does not then turn around and say murder a bunch of innocent women and children.
God honors His WORD above His name brother and if Gods word is eye for an eye, life for a life it would still be so today as it would have been the WORD of God. However, we know if we are honest within ourselves that Jesus is the WORD and He says NO to each one of these. And that He says NO shows forth abundantly that an eye for an eye and a life for a life is NOT Gods WORD.
Quote:
But in Exodus chapter 21, we see the original 'eye for an eye' statement, made by God the Father Himself.
"But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise."
This is a further expansion of the Noahic Laws about murder:
"Whoever sheds man's blood, By man his blood shall be shed, For in the image of God He made man."
It wasn't just Moses that started the eye for an eye. It has been around since the earliest times. It is called justice. Yes, it can be extreme, which is why the judges and kings had all the power. They interpreted the Laws and judged based upon what was written down.
It was not the law given to Moses or any other Tony these all come in because of the lying pen of the scribes.
Listen, if I was a scribe back then and I wanted the people to follow what I said what better way to get them to believe that what I said was from God then by attributing what I said to Moses.
Brother we see this very thing still today, pseudonyms have been used from the beginning of writing Tony and to believe they only happened at the start of Christianity (we see them all over the place) is to livewith blinders on.
Quote:
Jesus did show us His Way, a better way. He showed us that no matter how perfect the Law was, man could not hold to it. He did though perfectly. He showed us that the religious leaders and govermental leaders did not want to relinquish their power over the people concerning matters of the Law and their personal interpretations of the Law.
Tony it is the SAME law today that is written in our hearts that God wrote in stone in the time of Moses, it is a PERFECT LAW.
Quote:
Therefor, He brought us INTO His Covenant, which is a better one in which us mere men can, and should follow. His perfect Law of Love. Does this discount or nullify the Law? It cannot, for it is perfect and IS the Law of the Father. Romans 7:12
Again brother it is the SAME LAW, they are not two different laws they are ONE LAW
Quote:
So, we must take the whole counsel of the Word to further understand where we are at today. How does one understand the Second Covenant, without the First? This is where confusion comes forth.
Tony the first covenant and the second covenant is not based on the LAW (as it is the same law)per say it is based on sacrifice.The sacrifice of bulls and goats and the sacrifice of Jesus did NOT change Gods LAW (in the sense you believe)it only changed the law of sacrifice, NOT God’s holy, spiritual and perfect LAW.
Brother you simply cannot equate God’s Holy Law with the law of sacrifice as though they are the same thing, yet that is exactly what you are doing.
[SIZE=3] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]Tony time and again we see the ignorance of the people of old and what they attributed to God but was NOT of God. The people of old believed in a God who could do evil, is there not evil in the city and has the Lord not done it, Yet time and again we see Jesus correcting them of their error (the error I must say because of the lying pen of the scribes) a good tree CANNOT bring forth evil fruit, we are to either make the tree good and the fruit good or the tree evil and the fruit evil, Jesus was showing us God is not just good He was showing us God is ONLY and can be ONLY good. Yet time and again in the OT we see the people attributing to God evil. And the very same thing they did back then people are doing today because they refuse to listen to ONLY JESUS and those He revealed the Father to.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]Tony because within man is evil and good they have taken God and made Him after the image of corruptible man saying God is a God of both evil and good. They blamed God then and still do today for all the evil in this world, but Jesus showed and told us God the Father is NOTHING like what people believe Him to be.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]He is uncorruptable, CANNOT do evil, cannot lie[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]He is Love divine, pure and simple brother God IS love and love does NOT repay an eye for an eye or a life for a life, love simply FORGIVES for they know not what they do.[/SIZE]
Last edited by june 7th; 11-29-2010 at 04:38 PM..
Reason: Please refrain from using "red" as it is reserved for "mod cuts" and moderator interventions in posts. ~Thanks!
To show mans misunderstanding of Gods word. Read Deut 19:21 but be sure to read the context. Eye for an eye was much like when Jesus siad "If your eye offends pluck it out" it was a guide to the right choice, pluck your eye out or accept Christ. Eye for and eye was a deterant to those who wished to chose sin. Please read context with every quote you or anyone choses as an example.
If that is the case Robin then Jesus would not have said NO to an eye for an eye and a life for a life.
It does not matter what context you want to put it into Robin, Jesus knew what was written and He said NO to it.
You would be far better off beleiving Jesus than beleiving the lying pen of the scribes.
sad to say it but many still reject Jesus and hold to the same understanding of God as those who never really knew Him, they desired to but Jesus says they never saw and as they never saw why beleive them about the Father over the one who came to reveal the Father, Jesus Christ our Lord.
If God created an exclusive club, were jealous, egotistical, vengeful, genocidal, etc. . . . what is there to love? Why on earth would anyone want to be in His club? The desire to remain under the influence of our ancestors' primitive ignorance eludes me completely!
I certainly don't think Christianity was ever meant to be an exclusive little club. It's funny how God would like nothing more than for everybody to belong, but hatred and bigotry on the part of some Christians is what's keeping people out.
I don't want any part of a club that would accept me as a member.
Some people are going to be very very surprised that God's entry requirements aren't the same as theirs. I can't wait to see the look on a few people's faces when they realize God was more loving and merciful than they expected Him to be. What are they going to do when they see all of the people there that they thought for sure would be burning in Hell?
Some people are going to be very very surprised that God's entry requirements aren't the same as theirs. I can't wait to see the look on a few people's faces when they realize God was more loving and merciful than they expected Him to be. What are they going to do when they see all of the people there that they thought for sure would be burning in Hell?
I've been thinking about that a lot, lately. The look and the joy on their faces will be mind-blowing. I think the realization of just what is out there will be so mind-bending that both those who believed in ET as well as those who were atheist or agnostic will be shaken to the depths of their souls. In a good way.
I've been thinking about that a lot, lately. The look and the joy on their faces will be mind-blowing. I think the realization of just what is out there will be so mind-bending that both those who believed in ET as well as those who were atheist or agnostic will be shaken to the depths of their souls. In a good way.
This is the thought that I try to keep lingering in the forefront of my mind.
Absolutely.
O beautiful day.. when we all finally see clearly.
I'm trying to figure out how any Christian could read the OT and not find Jesus all the way through it. Every story, every name, every number....all points to Jesus and gives us incredible insights into His character and what this whole thing with us being on earth is all about. If a person is missing all of that, perhaps they should pray and ask God to put some better bible teachers in their path.
I've learned tremendous things about Jesus by just studying Jewish websites. I LOVE both the new and the old Testament equally.
But no....you don't HAVE to study it to be born again....but if you love Him....why wouldn't you WANT to?
I'm trying to figure out how any Christian could read the OT and not find Jesus all the way through it. Every story, every name, every number....all points to Jesus and gives us incredible insights into His character and what this whole thing with us being on earth is all about. If a person is missing all of that, perhaps they should pray and ask God to put some better bible teachers in their path.
I've learned tremendous things about Jesus by just studying Jewish websites. I LOVE both the new and the old Testament equally.
But no....you don't HAVE to study it to be born again....but if you love Him....why wouldn't you WANT to?
Call me crazy but I don't find a lot of Jesus in Leviticus 20, especialy
9If there is anyone who curses his father or his mother, he shall surely be put to death; he has cursed his father or his mother, his bloodguiltiness is upon him.
There are 332 prophecies in the Old Testament concerning Jesus that are fulfilled in the New Testament. How is it possible that a Christian cannot believe in the Old Testament?
Anyone wishing a list of these prophecies can contact me.
If you don't believe in the Old Testament, you don't believe in the New one either...you don't believe the Word of God if you only pick and choose the "pieces-and-parts" of it that you can easily twist into something that suits you! PERIOD!...NO MATTER WHAT YOU SAY!
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
